Greetings! It’s another edition of Can I Get a Ruling, aka that time when you vote on whether my pet peeves are signs of prescience or insanity.
Next up: twenty-something. Or thirty-something, forty-something, or a hundred-and-forty-something. As in a character is “[age in factor of ten]-something” years old.
I have to admit: when I see the phrase [number]-something my brain kind of shuts down.
Here’s why (I think). It’s just so unspecific. There’s a huge difference between a twenty-one year old and a twenty-nine year old. I suppose twenty-“something” is supposed to be somewhere in the middle, but why not just say how old they are? “Something” is longer than every number from one to ten, so it’s not as if you’re saving characters.
At the same time, maybe saying “twenty-seven” is too much information and the specificity is somewhat distracting?
If you’re reading this by e-mail or through an RSS reader, please click through for the poll:
brian_ohio says
I agree with you, Nathan. So you must be right. Anyway…
There is one exception. I wrote a SF novel a while ago, and this alien race had a unique numerical system. I invented a whole language, like Klingon. Only different.
Twenty-anything = 21
Twenty-everything = 22
Twenty-something = 23
Twenty-nothing = 24
etc…
See?
Donna Hole says
It does sound like a viable pet peeve. I've been guilty of the feeling myself.
However, my annoyance factor depends on how the -something is used. If there is dialogue and one character is describing another (usually a stranger) as twenty-something, its acceptable.
But if an author is using a persons age in the query or synopsis, or if the character is talking about themselves, then I like them to be specific. Even syaing mid-thirties or late forties doesn't get it for me in those situations.
……….dhole
Anonymous says
A 20-something is a 29-year-old who wants everyone to think s/he still is in her/his early 20s.
That's the whole point: honesty up to a point, flattery beyond it.
affbet says
"Twentysomething" isn't meant to convey an age, it's meant to convey a stage of life. No specific age gets across the type of job, lifestyle, and attitude that "twentysomething" implies. It's like "middle-aged." You only use it for a certain type of person 30-60 years old whether it's technically true for all of them or not.
Jael says
I like to specify. But somehow my PM deal announcement ended up with a "twentysomething" in it anyway. Therefore, I have left off stressing about it.
In a query, I wouldn't even mention the character's age unless it's important. A 50-year-old going to Europe for the first time is different from a 20-year-old going to Europe for the first time, but a character losing her husband is a character losing her husband. You've only got room for a certain number of details in your query. Pick the ones that count.
Lydia Sharp says
I don't think the [something]-something should be used. Either state the specific age, or don't state the age at all. Yes…HUGE difference between a 21 year-old and a 29 year-old, so if that is important to understanding the character, the reader must know.
elle and ben says
We would both rather know the age; even the difference between 24 and 27 is huge.
This makes us feel self-conscious because we just created a blog which uses "twenty-something." But we stand by it; "desperate hope" is the same at 21 and 29.
Kristen Torres-Toro says
I think there's a difference between "twenty-something" and "fify-something". I'd prefer to read the first over the latter. The first brings a "Friends-ish" image to my mind. The latter makes me think the writer doesn't know how to count.
Jenni Bailey says
I think a writer should know everything about their character. Every. Little. Detail. And they shouldn't necessarily include every little detail in their query or pitch but neglecting to specify his or her (or its, for all the paranormal folks) age suggests a dangerous lack of attention to detail. It just doesn't bode well for an author who wants to convey a sense of a fully fleshed-out work.
Gretchen says
I agree with those who said the use of "[number]-something" conveys something different than a specific age. It's not used to tell us exactly how old a character is. It's intended to lump him or her into a broad group along with all the perceptions and stereotypes we may have of that group. It doesn't bother me at all if it's used appropriately.
Ian Wood says
It *is" a cliché. Worse, it's a cliché that brings to mind a television show from the late 80s. So unless a writer is using the term with a specific intent–e.g., characterization, or establishing voice–I'd call it laziness.
History Dork says
I'm going to say it really depends on milieu. In a modern society, yes, everyone tends to know their age to the exact year. But if you're writing in a pre-modern society, particularly in the typical medieval-esque secondary world, that I would be astonished if your character knew how old they were to the exact year. In fact, I'd probably demand an explanation.
In medieval societies as a rule, unless you were waiting to come into an inheritance at a specific age (or your noble parents were anxiously waiting for you to hit 12 – female – or 14 – male – to marry you off) the closest people could recall their actual age was to the nearest decade. Once you were "twenty-something" and definitely past any possible definition of minority, you really didn't care exactly how old you were. Your age wasn't exactly going to help you planting or harvesting your crops….
Amy says
From a reader's perspective, I'm interested in "20-something" characters – I agree with Tim that the phrase implies a lifestyle – or that the book will deal with the tribulations of "finding yourself" (cliche for a reason!). I suppose one could find a more creative way to express those characteristics though. I kind of like "quarter lifer" – succinct, crisis implied.
Selestial says
I think it all depends on how it is used. As RCWriterGirl mentioned, if a narrator is referring to someone whose specific age they don't know, but they either know, or guess, that it's #-something, it works. It also works as a way to convey insecurity or a stage in life.
However, if I were an agent and ran across queries that said something along the lines of "Julie, a thirty-something housewife…." it would really bother me (not only because it's bland :P). The author should know the character's age, and to toss out a generalization like that without it having a deeper meaning (insecurity, etc.), it seems rather lazy.
Chris Scena says
What about a third option? Depends on if the character is mentioned in passing or is a main character? If it is just describing what someone looks like and then we do not see them again it would not bother me. If it is the protagonist or antagonist, I think there is a problem.
Anonymous says
Depends on the character it's used to describe. For a main character, you need tobe specific. For throwaway characters, however, a general idea may suffice. For example:
"Jack Killer [main character] threaded his way through the crowd of mostly twenty-something, inebriated concert-goers."
Or:
The fifty-something civil war reenactor loading his musket on a haystack went unnoticed, as did the fact that he was not loading it with blanks.
Anonymous says
Yes, as in the above examples, the phrase 30-something or 40-something is good when describing a crowd or person of unknown but aapproximate age through the eyes of another character.
All these designations have their use at 1 time or another. There is no such thing as language or phrasing that never has its place. They are all useful in certain situations.
~anonypus
DMO says
Nathan – This is a bit random but I need to ask you this!!
Is it presumptuous to compare your novel to a NYT bestseeling author?
I've written something which is relatively similiar to two authors. Is it okay to reference this is my query letter – I don't want to sound big-headed, but they are really the only two authors I can semi-closely relate my book to!
Many thanks!
DMO
Anonymous says
I think what bothers me more is when people get prejudiced about age.
I mean what is wrong with a forty-five year old man or a sixty-five year old woman as a protagonist. Does every main character have to be seamlessly young and perfect???
And how about a family where every members' age is valuable to the story. The different generations perspectives adding contrast and information to each other.
Also, 17th century twenty-one year old is very different from a 21st century 21 year old.
Matty Byloos says
I hate the "-something" add-on for the same reason I hate when writers describe characters as being similar to movie or t.v. stars. "Hers was a way like Private Benjamin on that eighties t.v. show about the army." "Malcolm spent his days thinking he could be someone more like Magnum P.I." And then they stop. It's as if the assumption being made is that we all know what/who the stars are, so the reference says it all. What actually happens is a kind of lazy, literary short hand, which feels mildly insulting at worst, and generic at best. Just tell me who your characters are, as explicitly as possible, I say.
Kathleen Elizabeth says
i think that it depends on who's doing the describing. If you have one character describing another character then how would they possibly be able to know exactly how old the other person was? but they could see if they were somewhere in their twenties. But when the age is being told from some sort of omnicient narration, then yeah, the age should be specifc.
Anonymous says
DMO:
It depends how to phrase it. You don't want to see "My book will sell more copies than [NYT bestseller X] or anything remotely like that. You don't even want to say, "My book s is similar to Bestseller's XYZ." It is acceptable, however, to say something along the lines of "Fans of Bestseller XYZ may like My Book," or "My Book is aimed at fans of Bestseller XYZ."
Capiche?
~The Anonymizer
Marilyn Peake says
I think it depends. I think good writing can include either type of description and do it well. Many great novels include detailed description about some characters and only quick glimpses of other characters' age and physical appearance. Many novels never even mention the characters' exact ages; it's left to the reader to make an educated guess based on context.
DMO says
Anon@2:14
Thanks!
DMO
Anonymous says
Under FAQ's somewhere in this blog, the answer to Question #1 should be:
IT DEPENDS!
That's the answer to 90% of the questions on these writing blogs. The mere fact that the question is being asked is, in many cases, indicative of a certain lack of understanding about the craft and/or business of writing.
IT DEPENDS!
~Anonypalooza
AM says
I think whether or not a character’s exact age should be specified depends on 1) its relevance to the story and 2) who is revealing the character’s age.
If one character is guessing another character's age, then "twenty-something" is fine. However, if the omniscient narrator is describing a character, I think the character’s age should be exact.
Anonymous says
It's a POV type thang!
~Anonymosaurus
Daniel Allen says
I think a lot of it depends on the type of book you're writing. I don't know many people who walk down the road and say "Huh, that's a really cute 26 year old. It must suck having Virgo with Leo rising as her sign. I wonder how in the hell she got all 168 pounds of her in those size 10 jeans!"
My point is, the average person typically doesn't know those kinds of details about a person–or in this case, character. So why should our stories? Unless those details are important, I'm content to just leave them vague.
Now, on the flip side, I do flush out all those details in character bios for every major character in my books. You may never know that "Hero X" is 28 years old or 165 pounds, but knowing that information from the author's perspective can help create continuity in the writing.
Amy Sue Nathan says
To me, twenty-something – or forty-something or whatever-something means more of a state-of-mind than a year of birth. It's a generality because the exact age doesn't matter as much as the stereotype. The number is precise but the meaning is missing.
reader says
Ii only think it matters when the character is in a YA novel — there is a huge, huge difference in a 14 year-old than a 17 year-old.
There's not that much difference between a 25 year-old and a 27 year-old, is there?
pjd says
I found that in the middle of decades, I frequently forgot what my actual age was. 34? 36? No, probably 35. (Wait, what year is it?) Doing the math was no good either because I could never remember whether you add one or not if the date is after your birthday… or… oh, bother.
Question for you, Nathan: Does "mid 30s" bother you more, less, or the same as "thirty-something"?
I think I will have to create a character I can introduce as a forty-six year old twenty-something.
Kate Higgins says
Something bothers me about this argument, it’s too black and white. “She is 40 something” is too vague and “Whitman was 37…” is too specific. I am an author/illustrator for picture books and dabble with middle-grade and YA. I would never tell my character’s age, I would show it with my pictures. Words are merely pictures drawn in type.
For instance:
“Cassy dreaded giving dad her report card, fifth grade math was just too hard.” Character is 8 or 9.
“Kevin left early enough to utilize his newly acquired milestone, today he was old enough to vote.” Kevin is 18.
“With her new BFA degree in her hand and 16 straight years of schooling behind her, Melinda could finally say good-bye to homework.” 12 years of public school and four years of college Melinda is mostly likely around 22 years old.
“George hated the day he got his AARP card…” George must be over 50 and finally, if someone celebrates their 50th wedding anniversary they are most likely over 70.
Show don’t tell.
Phyllis says
To me, age is a lot like hair or eye color. It's information I can usually do without.
Besides, there are many indirect ways to indicate age, the way people walk and talk, things they remember and what they relate to. Somebody who remembers an embarrassing situation from high-school hasn't been out of it for a long time.
I will accept every way to describe an age range if it's helpful. That "twenty-something" has become your pet peeve, Nathan, tells me something else: It's becoming a cliché, and that alone is a good reason to avoid it.
Bane of Anubis says
I've got a "teen-something" book I'm working on 🙂
Terry says
I don't like the "xx-something" for the reasons Nathan stated.
But I'm writing in first person, and sometimes my protagonist doesn't know the other character's age.
So while describing someone, he might say, "mid-twenties or early- or late-twenties, or even preppy boy. Or, "She admits to thirty-two but I think it's been a while since she's seen forty." That sort of thing.
Ryan Potter says
I tend to use decimals when I state a character's age – 26.2 yrs. old, 84.25 years old, etc.
Actually, I'm just kidding.
Or am I?
Anassa says
Twenty-something (etc.) is a term that should come from a character, not from the author. I know my main character is twenty-two. Someone passing him on the street may only be able to peg him as in his twenties, and might use "twenty-something" to describe him.
I also think it's got specific connotations. A twenty-something, to me, is someone (in their twenties) who hasn't quite figured out who they are yet and is still living something of a student lifestyle.
HypatiaKant says
The value of some often-repeated quotes would drop if the authors had been less specific.
Here are examples where the use of "something" would change everything:
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove [something]." -Abraham Lincoln
"I have a dream that some day [something] will happen." -Martin Luther King
"You only live once, but if you do it right, once is [something]." -Mae West
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at [something]." -Oscar Wilde
"Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting [something]." -Albert Eienstein
Karla says
I don't mind (number)-something at all. Unless the specific age is crucial to the character or plot, an age bracket works fine for me.
The author should know exactly how old the characters are, but that doesn't mean the reader needs to know.
Kristin Laughtin says
I'm usually specific with ages in my stories, and when I am vague, it's only to the extent of "early twenties", "mid-thirties", etc. A range of 3-4 years instead of a decade, to give some idea of where the character is in life (assuming they synch up to the established stereotypes) and I don't think it'd help the story to be more specific. As you said, there's a big difference between a 21-year-old and a 29-year-old. I'm 25 and I'm a vastly different person than I was at 21, and that's with only four more years of life experience.
Age isn't that important to me, though; I prefer to use instances in the characters' lives to show their approximate age.
Darin says
If a character says "twenty or thirty etc.-something", and that is something they would say, then I think it's appropriate. If it is a narrative description, from the POV character, I think it is better to say. "She appeared to be in her thirties," or better yet, "She appeared to be in her early/mid/late thirties, as your POV character in third person is summing up their initial impressions. Twenty-something isn't as much a statement of age as it is a generalized view of a type of person. I wouldn't use it as description.
Anonymous says
I think some use it to convey attitude rather than age. A 'something' is a bit more hip, a little edgy, more with it, if you will. I also think it's primarily a west coast thing just like we Californians tend to pin hours down to 7-ish, 8-ish, etcetera. So, Nathan, that's the vote from the laid back Southern end of the state.
Mungus says
I voted "doesn't bother me," but that's only if there is a reason to be vague about the age. Always have a reason.
Mimm says
"Thirty-something" of course brings to mind the television program and could be used to conjure a certain character type…other than that – tell me the age already!
Bobby says
To me, it's become such a cliche and a crutch to describe a character that "refuses to be defined by age" that it just feels lazy now.
Robin says
It bothers me if a writer uses it because they don't know the age of their character. But within the body of a story I'm assuming that the phrase was used intentionally and the writer understands that the reader could draw varying conclusions from the phrase based on their own —-something age.
and @HypatiaKant, I think the quote attributed to Abraham Lincoln should be Mark Twain.
Dara says
When I mention age in my writing, I'm always specific. Twenty something is too vague in a novel.
Of course, in my writer's profile on my blog I state my age as "twenty something"…:P I guess I figure in real life no one really gives a care about how old I am; at this point in life most people think I'm about five years younger than I really am. But I'm not complaining 🙂
Dara says
LOL, and after reading all these comments, I'm seeing that people think using the "something" is characteristic of an edgy and hip person. I never really thought saying you're twenty something, thirty something, etc. meant that.
In that case I'd better go change my info on my blog–I'm the farthest thing from edgy!
Liberty Speidel says
I think it depends more on the characters, just like people. Some folks don't mind telling you their age (I'm one of them), and others would rather you not know.
In books, I kind of look at it the same way. If it's the Stephanie Plum series, well, the characters don't age. But, in other series they do so it seems to be needed more. In standalones, it seems more of a moot point to me.
Hannah says
Unless it comes across naturally, (as in, someone asking how old they are or it being written in an article or similar) being introduced to a character and being told precisely how old they are (for example, coming right out of my head) 'Joe, 27 and a farmer' is weird. Generally, in well-written things, it's not hard to tell how old a character is. By their dress, their language, their description, their occupation. I don't need specifics.
But I do hate the expression '*-something'. If it's not important enough I know the character's exact age, it probably isn't important enough I know their approximate age. And it's a completely false expression. Nowhere in real life would I introduce myself or be introduced to by others as a 'twenty-something'. It's a cliche of writing and it makes me grind my teeth a little when I see it.