Greetings! It’s another edition of Can I Get a Ruling, aka that time when you vote on whether my pet peeves are signs of prescience or insanity.
Next up: twenty-something. Or thirty-something, forty-something, or a hundred-and-forty-something. As in a character is “[age in factor of ten]-something” years old.
I have to admit: when I see the phrase [number]-something my brain kind of shuts down.
Here’s why (I think). It’s just so unspecific. There’s a huge difference between a twenty-one year old and a twenty-nine year old. I suppose twenty-“something” is supposed to be somewhere in the middle, but why not just say how old they are? “Something” is longer than every number from one to ten, so it’s not as if you’re saving characters.
At the same time, maybe saying “twenty-seven” is too much information and the specificity is somewhat distracting?
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Nathan, your too cute.
Just say it but just don't ask me.
As a general rule when reading, I don't care for variants of some nor seem nor sort of nor kind of, etc. Somehow is especially odious. Their usages as indeterminant modifiers throw me right out of a story.
In a dramatically meaningful context, it seems perhaps a wishy-washy or hedging character's vague meaning space might somehow characterize the character in a way related to some central dramatic putpose.
But, by and large, indeterminant modifiers are at the peripheral edges of ideas and sort of seem like, you know, kind of shyly missing the mark somehow with lame writing.
Umpty-something years old? Such-and-such-something years old? Weak meaning space grasp that disrupts the reading spell with unnamed or nonspecific meaning.
It seems that in the books that I read most characters are somewhere around late twenties or thirties. Honestly, I don't really care one way or the other. I've read books with younger and older protagonists and it's never been a turn off one way or the other. I don't really see what the point is of mentioning age at all unless it's a major factor in the story.
I think that everybody knows the age of their character, and if they don't then maybe they should spend some more time with them. And if you know the age, why not just tell us?
I think it depends on the style and tone of the book. Giving an age of XXX-something makes me think the character doesn't want anyone knowing their age. The why depends on which something. Twenty-something and they might not like people to know how young they are, forty-something and they don't want people to know how old they are. Sensitivity to age makes me, as a reader, want to know why they're insecure about their age.
When I see the something phrase in regard to age, I, as a writer, suspect that the author is shirking the task of keeping up with the details, thus the author chooses to play it safe. That alone could make me put down a book in favor of my ever-growing stack of books to read.
I would have to think it would have to do with PoV and context in which it was said, or written as it were.
If the main character is stating their own age, perhaps in a monologue or mentally, like "What have I done with the twenty-something years of my life?", than yah it is weird. But say the PoV character is looking over at a crowd of people and spots a young woman and thinks that she was a "Fine piece of twenty-something architecture" than I think that would be perfectly acceptable. It would seem stranger if the character made a direct reference to a specific age without a relationship existing between them in one form or another.
It wouldn't really bother me to see it in a book, BUT if I did see it, I would automatically assume the book was chick-lit, even if it wasn't. There's just something about the 'something' that makes me think of Sex and the City and other such shows and books.
I'm thirty-something, which sounds ancient by some standards. But truly, I'm early thirties. Late thirties conjures up images of sagging and wrinkling (I can say that, I'll be there in a few years), but thirty-two? Now that sounds young and firm…um, right?
If it's an ancillary character, twenty- or thirty-something is no biggie to me. But if it's a character we'll see over and over, give him or her an age for the love…
The older I get, the more I realize just how much of a difference there is between 21 and 25, between 24 and 27. The occasional person defies the standards of her or his age, but overall, the number tells me a LOT about that person's mental and emotional maturity. Numbers matter.
In the novel I'm currently attempting, my protagonist begins as a high school freshman, so it is entirely relevant that she is 14. Her dad, on the other hand, is of indeterminate age, except that we know he served in Desert Storm. I could figure out an age for him if one were needed, but I really don't care, and I don't see why the reader should.
-Steve
By that reckoning you HAVE to hate the terms "in their Twenties/Thirties/Forties", "Middle Aged" and "teenager" as well for their similar generality.
I've got no problem with people disliking the term (though I think giving more than 1 character a specific age sounds like you're reading a player profile from a football managment game) you've got to lump the whole lot together to avoid being a hypocrite
I always assumed it alluded to the end of the decade in question, as in "twenty-something" really meant "pushing thirty".
I have occasionally used that phrase if one of my characters is describing another person whom they do not yet know. The basic idea is that from looking at them they have a rough idea how old they are, but do not know their exact age yet. The xxx-something phrase reflects that uncertainty quite nicely and is refreshingly different than using "Mr. T appeared to be around fifty years old." all the time…
I'm having a hard time writing what I REALLY want my character's age to be, 38, because I'm told that (and this is really revealing my inner dream and sense of optimism) younger actresses looking for good movie roles, including those in their early 40s, won't accept a role where the character is over 30. !?! I know! Of course there's Cate Winslet who's taking roles decades older than herself, but that is rare. there seems to be a 40 year old cut off for top actresses, until they reach the Susan Sarandon, Meryl Streep stratisphere.
Any comments on how to determine a character's age based on how you view the FILM(!) ?
How come no one is pointing this one out yet? I don't intend to start a gender war her, but the term 'something' associated with age was created by women.
As you said, Nathan. There's a big difference between 21 and 29. Think of the bigger difference between 41 and 49.
🙂
When a police officer in a crime story does profiling, they bundle up victims or wanted criminals in certain age groups, hence the 'something'.
A writer has to be clear of his character's age, true. But the character can choose to be specific or not about her age depending on whether or not she wants to be mysterious and alluring.
It depends. If it's a major character, I'd like an age, or even a 'late-twenties' or 'early forties'.
With walk-ons, I'm okay with '-something'.
I'm sort of on the side of the more important the character (or scene or object), the more detail I expect. For walkons, I don't care if the dogwalker is 20-something and carrying a cup of coffee. I don't need to know if it's Starbucks or McD's. If we're expected to meet the dogwalker, then we need an age and a brand of coffee.
I'm not so much bothered by the lack of specificity–what bothers me about "thirty-something" etc. is that it sounds so trite. It's a cliché, and by ascribing it to your character, it makes him or her a cliché, too. Real people are not thirty-somethings or twenty-somethings, but caricatures are.
I think it makes the reader feel like the character is ashamed of his age. If you don't say the real age you wonder why that's the case. Just my opinion…
I would only use it for groups, as in, "A cluster of twenty-somethings stood by the bar complaining about their jobs."
The real answer is, of course, "It depends."
A strong writer who is otherwise selecting words (especially verbs) carefully, can use that bit of vaguery to great effect.
It's a problem when the rest of the writing is also vague and non-specific.
In a sea of specific, a non-specific descriptor can 1) (ironically) stand out or 2) provide a subtle reinforcement of more descriptive statements nearby.
There's cultural information packed inside that phrase. The challenge is to understand the additional meaning so that the phrase is used with deliberate intent and not merely because it was the first thing to leap to mind.
So really, it depends. And I would also add that if you are noticing and are irritated by the use, then it's probably not well done.
taken out of context, it doesn't bother me, perhaps in the mismatched wardrobe of poor writing it would be the glaring sight of a tee shirt tucked into boxers.
Just an after thought. How do you feel about people who say things (as I occasionally do) such as "I recently celebrated the twenty fourth anniversary of my thirty ninth birthday"?
I would say that if a character is defining him or herself or another character as decade-something, it makes sense. If the author gives the age of a main character in those terms, then it doesn't.
There isn't always a huge difference between a 21 year old and a 29 year old. Often, for sure, but I'd think that if the author is saying twenty-something, they're saying the character's age isn't something they want to define that character. I would argue it's like leaving out the character's height and weight; sometimes they're important for the story, but often, they're just not.
I think it depends on the circumstances in the story, and the tone of the book. If the story's being told from the POV of a character who would use that expression, then it's appropriate. Saying either "Yes, you can do that whenever you want" or "No, you can never do that" is massive oversimplification.
Angie
I agree with Flemmily. I tend to think it means at the older end of the decade mentioned. It implies a caution about telling your age, so the character must have a certain need to be vague about his/her age. Or if the story's setting were, say, in a bureaucratic office with the twenty-somethings being the singles connected to a singles scene after work and the thirty-somethings were the getting married and beginning families crowd, and the forty-somethings were multitasking away their existences between carpooling kids and being involved in extremely competitive careers and the fifty-somethings were struggling with fitness issues, etc. Then the use of it would pigeon hole the author's character into a type not just an age.
"Twenty-something, (etc.)" seems more like a casting thing for movies or tv.
It is all about perception. How does the woman/man/child/alien/vampire,etc
look to the other character(s)?
Where it becomes trickiest, for me anyway, is when there is an age progression. The movement from childhood to adulthood so that, um different things can happen while retaining the personality of the character is challenging.
So I think, eighteen may be too young for some activities, twenty-one may still be too young. Twenty-four or twenty-five moreso, twenty-eight is good for the man but the woman should be twenty-four.But then again, where (????) were they between eighteen and twenty-one?
(I could pull my own hair out.)
So the basic question remains: how important is defining just exactly what age that is? It might affect different readers differently. It also might just clutter up the writing, all those factoids. Once they are um of age they are no longer without the right gear.
I also think that "Thirteen Moons" is just Excellent in age progression, as an example. And he is very specific.
I think it works well for plurals.
Two thirty-something women.
I mean, what are you going to say? Karla is thirty-two and Samantha is thirty-four.
It doesn't bother me, although I think it's the best fit for light fiction.
Nathan, it depends on where the phrase is. In one of my novels, a character assesses another character as "twenty-something" because he cannot know the actual age. Yes, he could also say "in her twenties," but if the quicker phrase communicates, why not?
Prescience or insanity?
It can't be both?
Ha. I'm joking. I don't even know what that means, I just thought it'd be fun to say.
I think if I were reading queries, this would bother me. I'd be trying to quickly get a detailed sense of the story. Not knowing the age would keep things vague. Also, I'd wonder how well the author knows his own MC, if he doesn't even know their age. Or if he was just trying to be clever, which would probably be irritating after the 5,639th query.
In a book – I pretty much agree with what people said – it depends on the author's intent. It could be used well, or used poorly.
In the same vein, would it be ok in a story/query to refer to your protags as "college-aged kids"? Or should you be like "College Kid A is 19, College Kid B is also 19, but looks 5."
Idk, I try not to put ages exactly into the text, but giving their age an approximation by saying that they are juniors at university.
I understand your point, Nathan. I mean a 21-year-old is far different than a 29-year-old, but it doesn't bother me that much. For one thing, even 21-year-olds are different from one another. I've known mature ones that seemed to be in their thirties, and I've known not-so-mature ones that don't seem out of their teen years yet. I figure the dialogue and action will tell me more than a specific age.
Of course, I don't see such expressions as often as you do, I imagine. 🙂
I should clarify, however, that I always give specific ages in my writing.
Posting a comment to this as it is the latest entry, but I have a question about a previous post regarding writing a manuscript.
Nathan, you talk about having page numbers on every page except chapter pages, but I'm using Word, so, does anyone know how I can do this? Have tried going through page setup and header/footer setup, but no joy.
btw, writing my FIRST DRAFT of my FIRST NOVEL, woohoo!
oh, and, I agree with using thirty-something, but not twenty-something. When people are between the ages of 27 and 37 – they are at that stage where it'd be impossible to guess their age – that's what i think anyways.
Cheers
The more I write, the more I see that firm detail is very important. The best advice I've taken and not give at every opportunity is "a thing either 'is' or 'is not'" So in this instance, a character is either 27 or 30 or 10.
I really like Kate Higgins' suggestion, to indicate characters ages through milestones.
My book's main characters are a 32-year-old man and a 29-year-old woman, who both put their careers ahead of relationships and have been dating for three months when the plot starts.
I find myself counting backwards to make sure I know how many years ago they were at various points in their lives, and I guess that people who create vital characters of indeterminate age don't want to have to do this.
I pretty much agree with all your comments. At least say "early, mid-, or late twenties." That narrows it down somewhat.
But I also think in some novels it's more important than others. Adult novels don't seem to rely quite as much on age to tell the story. However, children's and YA literature are all based around the development at a specific age, so tell what age that is.
One of the first things I come up with when I start developing a character is his/her exact age.
Or you could say mid-twenties or late-twenties if you didn't want to be too specific. It's a compromise.
I'm 26, and I refuse to be a 'twenty-something'. I will refuse to be a thirty-something etc, and my forty-something other half is 47 next week. If you're not going to be specific, why even give an age.
I know vampires have been mentioned, but I don't agree that decade generalisation is acceptable even in this circumstance. Over a hundred years old, yes. One-hundred-and-fifty-something, no. It's a waste of time on the part of the reader and the writer.
This is the only page on the internet on which the word "Anonymonopoeia" appears.
In the final years before I hit the big 4-0, I would usually refer to myself as being "thirty-mumble." Now I can say I've "just passed the forty mark" – for, ooh, at least the next two or three years… before making use of the "mumble" suffix again ;^)
In my current w-i-p my MC doesn't know her own age or those of anyone around her, so she makes guesses based on observation. I've always had her say things like "in his mid-twenties" or "about thirty" though. I would NEVER use the '-something' phrase, because – well, I suppose I just don't write about the kind of people who would talk like that…