Very quickly in the comment thread from yesterday’s post on revisions, Rick Daley raised an interesting revision checklist question: “Can you sit back and read through it without a compulsive need to continue changing it?”
This got me to thinking: when do you know you’re finished with revisions?
When a writer is faced with a possibly infinite task, when do you close the computer and say, “I’m done?” And do you have any strategies for resisting a premature declaration of completion?
wendy says
Funny this topic should come up today as I've been fine-tuning a novel for years, but it was only today when I really felt I couldn't take it anymore. I haven't worked on it every day during the afore-mentioned period, just now and again. However, I think every word has been rewritten at least three times. Even though fed up, I'm sure it has been drastically improved.
The story has been difficult to write well partly because it combines two incompatible genres, paranormal romance and inspirational.
Rick Daley says
Thanks Nathan! I was just hoping to be added to yesterday's list, I didn't even dream of inspiring a whole post.
Melissa had a good point when she wrote:
"I know I'm done editing when all I'm doing is changing the word arrangement and not actually improving on anything."
I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect sentence, especially if you consider it in the context of a 60,000 + word novel. There comes a point where you must realize that every sentence can be worded differently (adverb thrown in just for Mira), but that does not necessarily make it better. In fact, over-editing can make it worse.
For example:
"I ran into a friend at the store."
Hmmm…I wasn't really running, although that is a common figure of speech, but still, I can make it better.
"I bumped into a friend at the store."
But actually, it was her shopping cart, not her. Nope, must improve the wording.
"I met a friend at the store."
Well, I think met implies a pre-arranged event, and this was not planned.
"I encountered a friend at the store."
Yeah, encountered is a big word and technically it fits, but the sentence does not flow…
My strategy for resisting a premature declaration of completion:
1. Go through the excellent checklist Nathan and the rest of the commentors put together on yesterday's post.
2. Find a diverse group of beta readers. Not just friends and family, and not just writers, but a mix of both. Writers and non-writers will provide very different kinds of feedback, but both points of view are valid. If you are getting good feedback from both sides of the aisle, you're probably ready.
Rebecca Knight says
Alan, that was awesome! I was snickering through the whole comment :D.
Thank you to all of you contributing to this topic. I've been hip-deep in minor revisions, and have been asking myself this question all week.
I only have a few more "real" fixes to make before I'm just shuffling words around.
This post was a breath of fresh air :).
Mercy Loomis says
I'm with Anon 9:32.
Also, just because you can't stand it anymore does NOT mean it's done. It just means you need to take a break for a little while.
I worked on my first novel for 11 years, on and off. It's done enough – I'm actually happy with it. If I wait five more years, then yes, there will be changes I could make that would probably make it better. But right now, I'm to the point where I'm changing very very minor things. So I'm done. So now I'm sending it out and working on new things.
If I still haven't sold it in a few years, I'll dust it off and give it a go through again. 😉
Central Content Publisher says
Any reason to claim you're finished is the right one. The second time you're finished is when your agent says you are. The third time you're finished is when you read the reviews. If you're lucky, you'll die before the forth.
D. G. Hudson says
How would I know when the novel is finished? I would probably go with gut instinct again, as it never seems to fail me.
As an artist has to know when a painting if finished, so a writer has to know when he's done his last revision.
I also run it by my Ideal Reader (a.k.a. best critic). Writing creatively (fiction) to me is like any other creative effort. You know when it's done intuitively. Some days I just follow the 3-day rule, let it sit for that time and then make a judgment. Whatever works.
Anonymous says
When my publisher's deadline dictates I can no longer work on it.
Anonymous says
Excellent question. I agree with lots of answers…it's never really finished, when critique group is looking for things, when you're sick of it. For me, it's when I've started to fantisize about killing characters off because I AM sick of them. Sometimes enough is good enough. This actually might be one of my strengths as a writer, members of my critique group are still on novel #1 because they can't let go, while I'm on #3 with both manuscripts 1 and 2 being read by agents.
reader says
When, by revising, you are making things "different" but not "better."
Or, in my case, when the thought of picking up that damn book one more time makes me want to vomit.
Dara says
I think I'll enlist the help of a beta reader at least after I get my WiP edited well enough for reader consumption.
Otherwise, I have yet to figure this one out. Perhaps when I get closer to the end, I'll have a better answer
Or not. 😛
susiej says
"premature declaration of completion" (snigger)
The story is done when the characters stop talking in my head. I suppose the manuscript is complete when its published.
sylvia says
I once heard Garrison Keillor say, on the radio, that he was revising Lake Wobegon Days, even though it was already published.
I love this. This is totally me. :/
Usually I know that a piece is completed because I have a deadline and thus very little choice in the matter. I am aware that this does not bode well for my novel. *tweaks a bit more*
Christine says
I'm with da Vinci and Michelangelo on this one. I'll paraphrase Michelangelo by saying that novels are never finished. They just stop in interesting places. And then, you have to move on to the next one.
Ieva says
There is one point when I know that the piece (in my case, a story) will benefit more from somebody else (eg my Trusted Reader) than me re-reading it and trying to force it to be "better".
When I have made the revisions according to revelations after TR's comments, I know that I'm done.
Nikki Magennis says
When the thought of even looking at the ms makes me feel sick to my stomach.
RW says
When you're standing in the bookstore penciling changes into printed copies on sale and the clerk is threatening to call security.
Jo says
Great post and great comments. I got nothing to add except that there are still edits I'd like to make on my published book.
Thermocline says
When I find myself seeing only single words or phrases I can improve rather than elements of the story. That’s when it becomes like playing Boggle – just seeing various iterations of the letters before me.
The issue of Beta Readers has been very much on my mind lately. I wonder how valuable the feedback I’ve been receiving is really going to help me get my WIP published. Is there any more value in feedback from a professional editing service than a writing group? What about from members of my target audience (such as eighth graders) who aren’t writers? It’s too simplistic to say, “Find brutal honesty from someone you trust.” How do you get or know if you’re getting the most useful feedback possible?
Nathan, I think this could be a great topic and discussion for a future post.
Marilyn Peake says
I feel my novel’s almost finished when all the threads (especially subplots and character arcs) are woven tightly together, when the stories of all the main characters reach a satisfying conclusion, when I’ve edited and reedited to correct grammar and make sure I haven’t repeated specific words too closely together, and when I feel the ending is powerful enough. Then I hand it to a reader who I know is a prolific reader; and if they love the book, I feel my novel is really finished, although I might check through it one more time. At that point, I feel my book is ready to submit to agents or publishers, although I never expect that everyone will like it. As far as I know, all or almost all books receive rejections. And, of course, if the novel is accepted, editors may want additional changes for all kinds of reasons, and that means the final version of the book isn’t quite there yet.
Claire says
I feel like my novel is completed when the the beginning to the end are connected nicely throughout the middle and flow easily. Also, the story says everything I want it to say. In addition, I agree that the urge to edit won't be there as you read through it.
That's just me, though. What works for me won't necessarily work for someone else.
🙂
PurpleClover says
I think it's a good question. I'm not a tinker fairy by any means. I'm more like a fast winds fairy. (This is lost on anyone that hasn't seen Tinkerbell. LOL)
Anyhow, I can only answer for my picture books since my wip is incomplete (more so now than ever since computer-guy confirmed my last 30k words are gone to neverland). But once my PB was complete I would edit, use alpha/beta readers, and then query. I have been known to change the story after querying a few, but usually when I'm done I'm done.
Although I think it is easier for PB's. I mean how many rewrites can you do before it is a totally different story, you know?
Anonymous says
I knew it was finished when I got the nagging feeling that I was doing more harm than good.
PurpleClover says
My mistake…that should be a fast-flying fairy not fast-winds.
LMAO. I will refrain.
CapitalistPoet says
My day job is on Wall Street, researching (and writing a lot about) stocks. This pressure-cooker environment has taught me:
1) The revision process is a lot easier to manage in the face of deadly deadlines. Our deadlines are typically as bad or worse than those faced by newspaper reporters. Accuracy is utterly crucial — clients can lose a lot of money if we're wrong, especially if an investment decision is based on faulty numbers.
2) Revisions, in turn, are much simpler if the writing process is highly structured. I adapted the same structured process I built as a Wall Street survival skill for my first four (in-process) novels and a non-fiction title. Before I slid the metaphorical sheet of paper into the metaphorical typewriter to start the first novel, I had a VERY detailed business plan lined up with the story arc for the whole novel series, and completed treatments for 12 different potential stories. Behind each treatment was a detailed storyboard with plot, rationale for structuring the scene that way, needed foreshadowing, etc. And there's a character guide with the biographical, motivational, and other aspects of the character's history, written retrospectively from the end of the story arc, so I don't get written into a corner with conflicting motivations for a character at different parts of the series.
I spent about 5 months of nights and weekends writing the business plan, story arc, treatments for 12 books, character guide, etc., before even starting the actual historical research much less putting pen to paper. The plan is literally a novel in itself, as it is now over 110k words in its current incarnation.
The plan has given me the confidence to be very productive on the actual writing, since (as a new fiction writer) my mortal fear is to write myself into a corner on plot mistakes and have to toss out 50+ pages to repair a major hole. Thus, edits so far have been mostly about tone of dialog, character motivations, other stuff that's relatively easy to fix in a well-plotted framework. My technology toolset is a lot more aware of story architecture than a standard word processor, but that's a story for a different day.
3) I am thinking of the process of getting these works published as a commercial venture, so I'm very conscious of the value of my time, which limits endless worrying about whether something is done. It should be fairly close to done after about three or four major "clean" editing passes if I've followed the writing and planning process OK.
That said, I'm not going to try to bang out commercial trash to fill my bank account (i.e., no "Hardy Boys with guns" here), but remembering "better is the enemy of PAID" is helpful.
I'm not sharing this because I'm trying to brag about being some sort of literary "superman" — quite the opposite is true, since I have a classic short attention span, am highly disorganized, and fall prone to all sorts of procrastination and obsessive-compulsive attention to detail, especially on the research. Those personality quirks killed my first career, as a software engineer several decades ago. You have to ship a completed product every so often…
So these are survival skills I've had to develop in order to start on an equal footing with people that have more linear thought processes and who are more organized.
–CapitalistPoet
Other Lisa says
These are all so wonderful that I'm just gonna nod vigorously.
morshe says
Agree: Art is never finished, just abandoned.
Mira says
Capitalist Poet –
Wow.
instinctive reader says
I go through a lot of things as I self edit, refine, etc.
I have to feel I've got the story out to my own satisfaction and I have to please myself first.
And then, as I am now turning, gratefully, to find Beta readers, I will be asking for two reads.
(This is also what I myself do with books I am trying to read as a beta reader.)
First, read it all straight through -no stopping or commenting.
Because first and foremost, I want to have a reaction to the story itself.
If the story is compelling to the beta reader, then, I'd want them to reread it a second time, this time with an eye on fixing its flaws.
However, if I don't have a story first, the second part is not worth the bother for them or me.
I am new at this, but this is how my instincts seems to direct me.
Wanda B. Ontheshelves says
P.O.W. – Potentially Overlapping Wows
Mira,
Could you expand on the exact nature of your "wow?" I thought wow too, but not sure if my wow and your wow overlap at all.
Wanda B., sometimes known as AntiCapitalistPoet…fully in favor of tossing 50+ pages when necessary…it's so liberating to be inefficient and explore deadends and generate false starts…seems to do the trick for me…?? "Success is on the far side of failure." Did Edison say that? Who said that?
Finished novel: When you can read it without making changes…just keep reading 'til you get to the end. Like it was a real novel! That seems to be it…
Chris Bates says
It finished when you'd rather eat razor blades then write another draft.
instinctive reader says
For example,
I read all four books in the Twilight Saga straight through.
There is a compelling story here.It totally got me.
Then I read them through again.
The story is still really compelling.
But THIS time, I am seeing certain things repeat that are a simple editing corrections that would help the writing.
But, hey, she is so successful even with these flaws.
I mean she HAS a story!
csmith says
Hi Nathan,
Unsure if anyone else has said this – but I try keep in mind what Pevsener said about beauty in architecture : to paraphrase
"The point at which nothing can either be added to nor taken away from the whole without diminishing the work."
Of course, living up to this is another thing entirely.
Chris
(excuse all spelling mistakes, migraine ahoy)
Mira says
Wanda – Lol.
I was admiring Capitalist Poet's determination and drive, organizational skills, ability to conceptualize and pursue a goal, and just general downright gumption.
We do things differently, but……Wow.
Tricia J. O'Brien says
A lot of great comments here. RW made me laugh, saying when you are in the bookstore penciling changes in. And guess what? That indeed has happened. An author I know was in a bookstore with another author when he furtively started writing revisions in the books from the shelves! The books that keep on growing…
Jenny says
Actually, I have a question related to that: can you revise too much? Can you revise the heart/voice/grit out of a story that should have been really interesting, but the writer listened too closely to a critique group or workshop and what made it unique is now gone?
Henriette Power says
It's done when you can read it aloud without getting snagged on any phrasing, any out of whack emotions on the part of characters, any dialogue that rings false. You can't read too fast, or you'll lull yourself into a false sense that everything's going smoothly. Read it as if it were a script, and if it sounds right, then the book's done.
Johanna says
I read once that you keep editing and re-editing until you find that it is suddenly getting worse instead of better…then you stop. You're finished!
Tracey says
I know I'm done when the deadline's up. I've actually squirmed sometimes reading my published work, knowing I could have written certain parts better. But, this is art, not mathematics. There is no "perfect."
Yat-Yee says
I don't yet. I hope I will develop my gut enough to be able to tell.
Sandra G. says
You know you're finished revising when all you are doing is tinkering for the sake of tinkering.
Sometimes, tinkering can be akin to a child's security blanket.
"Now I have to actually submit my baby?"
When it's time, stop fiddling with the darn thing, trust that you have written as well as you were able, and submit your baby.
Lorrie T. says
I'm done revising when I make a change, and then go back and change it back to the original version.
Christine H says
Dear Capitalist Poet,
The process you describe is one that I have heard touted by many speakers on writing. It usually makes me want to tear my hair and scream with frustration and jealousy. In a good way.
I could never do that type of pre-planning, because I can't think of the plot until I have characters moving around and interacting with each other in a scene. My writing is more organic. I just have to start writing trash and revise, revise, revise.
So I just want to echo Mira's "Wow!" in a good way, and comfort the rest of organic, trashy plotters out there. You're not alone.
Christine H says
Jenny – yes, you can revise the guts out of a story. I've done it, and bitterly regretted it. It comes from lack of confidence in your idea and your voice.
I sincerely doubt Nathan realized what kind of response he was going to get to his question! Quite a different tone than yesterday.
Haste yee back ;-) says
Purple,
"Fast winds fairy.!
Hell, I thought you'd invented a new push on Valsalva's Maneuver for the Tinker Bells flitting about us!
Haste yee back 😉
Anonymous says
An outline should help with this. Put the analytical skills to work on creating the outline–make sure that, if executed, that it will encompass all you want to say with the story.
then, when your 1st draft is complete, go back to your outline and check off the points–are they in there? Are there new elements in the story that render any of the outline points moot?
DG says
I've often wondered when editing if I'm really improving what I've written, or simply changing what I've written so I'll be less bored.
Brian Crawford says
Hi Nathan. I'm still not sure if my novel is finished, but I have a question for you: I queried an editor I met at a writer’s conference. After reading the first few chapters of my novel, the editor requested my complete manuscript. I sent it via email, and I haven’t heard anything from her. When, if ever, is it appropriate to send a follow-up email to confirm she received the manuscript? Thanks.
Nathan Bransford says
brian-
I don't really mind when people ask to confirm that an attachment arrived, but honestly, since these things work 99% of the time I usually just recommend following up once a month politely by e-mail.
Anonymous says
Honestly, Nathan, how can you know they work 99% of the time. I've sent stuff from my house to work and vice versa, and not had it show up at least 20% of the time. I often wondered if it was due to the size. Same happens when I send to friends. I have also had it come out jumbled.
Nathan Bransford says
anon-
Sounds like you need to switch e-mail programs.