Very quickly in the comment thread from yesterday’s post on revisions, Rick Daley raised an interesting revision checklist question: “Can you sit back and read through it without a compulsive need to continue changing it?”
This got me to thinking: when do you know you’re finished with revisions?
When a writer is faced with a possibly infinite task, when do you close the computer and say, “I’m done?” And do you have any strategies for resisting a premature declaration of completion?
Sarah M. Isaacson says
I'm done when I'm ready to share a piece with the world, whether it hates it or loves it.
CoreyBlake says
I follow two guideposts:
1. When 80% or more of my focus groups say that they like or love the book.
2. When 80% or more say that they were immediately hooked.
Ruth says
This is where I get worried… I don't think I'll ever think I'm done! I might get sick of rewriting it though and just give it to my beta readers, rewrite it to death again and then once I'm finally sick of the whole bloody novel I'll probably query it to some poor unwary agent.
Ugh.
annielaural says
NEVER..I will never be able to give up tweaking..even when the joy of reading the manuscript in hard cover! There's always another way to write it…yeah..like Garrison Kellor, as if! 🙂
Genevieve says
I love editing. I love changing stuff and making it better, but it's gotta go out, right? When I THINK I'm done, I pass out 5 copies to friends who can really contribute. But the final for me is when I can read the entire thing out loud without stopping to mark up the page.
Memoirs of a Bulimic Black Boy says
"I know I'm done editing when all I'm doing is changing the word arrangement and not actually improving on anything."
I agree with the above and would add when the more changes I make the less the work looks and sounds like something I birthed. I do think another set of eyes is highly beneficial as long as they are trained eyes and are looking for what they are trained to look for. Excellent topic.
Angie says
I get great satisfaction from being done with a piece, probably because I've been writing short fiction for so long. I decided the novel was done when I got the critique from my most valuable and trusted critiquer, took her awesome advice, and did one last proofreading. Now I won't revise it again unless an editor or agent requests it. One big thing that really keeps me from endless tinkering is to dive right in to the next project.
Tim Bosworth says
You have to make a contract with yourself. Such as, "This is the last run through. I will stay with each scene until I think I'm done, and once I'm finished, I will not go back even though I really want to. Then give it to someone else to read, professional or not, and make another deal with yourself, just to change what they say, and nothing more. Otherwise, when does it end. You have to realize you're never going to be satisfied. You have to give it your best shot and then go on.
AstonWest says
There are authors who stop feeling the need to compulsively change their manuscript? Who are these crazy people?
🙂
Laura Martone says
Ugh – what a terrific and yet painful question – a perfect follow-up to yesterday's revision checklist, Nathan.
As I am currently in the midst of revising (again) my first novel, I'd say that, when it comes to fiction, I'm never quite done.
While I'd like to agree with Fred, who earlier said, "When it's sold and in print," I'm afraid that I probably won't even be done then (not in my head/heart anyway). As I pondered this question all day long, I recalled an interview with Alice Sebold, whose THE LOVELY BONES was obviously a huge success. Despite such success, however, she said that she would occasionally reread parts of her published novel and cringe, wishing she could still change something here or there.
Ah, the perpetual pain of a perfectionist! Believe me, I know that feeling.
–Laura
Anonymous says
Good question. I'll answer it when I finish editing my third draft.
Shell says
Considering that I am going to a writing conference this week (I got home about fifteen minutes ago) and my group said they thought my first chapter isn't really my first chapter and I've revised that sucker A MILLION TIMES, I'm thinking the darn thing is never going to be finished.
Sorry. The frustration has not yet completely dissipated.
Gilbert J. Avila says
Once Pat Murphy was talking about editing and writing for a women's anthology of erotica/porn called "Herotica," and she posed the question—"How do you know when you've finished writing a porno story?" I told her—"Pat, Pat–it's easy. You know you've finished writing a porno story when you find yourself typing with both hands."
Minnette Meador says
I edit while I write, but once the project is done, I read through it six times. Don't ask me where I got that number. I run it by my critique partners as many times as they can stand; have several beta readers go through it; then a dozen times through myself at the end before submissions. Off it goes to my editor. It's a long process, but worth it. Of course, there is the three or four times my editor and I go through it, but hey, who's counting? 🙂
mjcwrites says
For me, it'll be finished when working on it further is meaningless. Once it's headed for the bookstore shelves and any further editing would be complete self-indulgence, I'll stop. Until then–I'll fix every typo I find.
Minnette Meador says
Oh, and one more thing; I also stop when I start changing things back to where I had them to begin with. That's a sure sign. 🙂
Kristi says
Purple – I'm so sorry that 30K is gone for good. Also, I loved the reference to Tinkerbell – I'm such a tinker fairy who wishes she were a fast-flying fairy!
Author Guy says
I sent my latest MS to my publisher completely aware that a) it was complete, the story was done, and b) that it needed something else. I didn't want to just start 'adding' stuff, but I didn't see any part where I could further develop what I had.
Anonymous says
I thought my ms. was polished & finished but then an agent questioned the MC, the pace, even the dead guy…so it's back to the drawing board?
Joann Mannix says
John Q-Your comments hit to the heart of writing. I'm the perfectionist type, not willing to let go because it is never perfect. What is perfect? Nathan, your latest post had me going, check, check, check….Everything's in line, it's the jumping off that's the difficult part.
Meg says
When I get to the point of hating the story simply because I have done nothing but revisions on it. I call it done. Enough. Until an early reader tells me point A doesn't make sense and this sentence is totally pointless…
So. Never?
superwench83 says
There are so many good answers in here! Alan, you ought to post your list to your blog…so I can then link to it on mine! And I really like what scott g.f. bailey said about revision being where the real writing happens. That's so true for me.
I think when it comes down to it, you have to listen to your gut. Sometimes you can find nothing wrong with the story and your beta readers think it's brilliant, but something still doesn't feel right. You still want to tinker. (Yes, I am a tinker fairy. You know, that was actually a really good movie!) When that happens, I set the work aside for a while and try not to think about it. And one day, I go back, or one day I can't help thinking about it, and I realize what's not working in the story. When I read over a story with my most critical eyes and I only have the desire to change a word here or there, or some other petty thing, then I know the story is ready.
- Eadyn's Calling says
I've never felt "finished" with a novel. I finally had to set a limit of edits. 3 or 4, then I'm done toying with it.
mkcbunny says
Great question, and a really engaging thread. I wish I could read this blog during business hours, but coming in late does mean that I have a lot of interesting comments to read.
I'm an anal, checklist-loving person. I build lists of things to check and correct with each editing pass. It's a combination of general "to-do" items much like Nathan's list and my own notes made as I do each read-through.
The "list" is actually a stack of papers, both typed and handwritten, plus a sea of Post-Its. As each sheet of paper's items are addressed, that paper is tossed away. So I know that all of the detailed stuff is done when there's no more paper left.
But the final sign-off is flow. Some parts of the book flowed well right from the start. Others had serious plot changes and restructuring that made them feel choppy, so they needed multiple passes to smooth them out.
mkcbunny says
You know, the easy way to answer the question would have been to say, "When the damn thing stops nagging me, and I can read it without making notes." But that's not very informative as to HOW one might get to that point.
The Writing Muse says
a)A novel is really finished when you are happy/content enough to send it out to agents/publishers.
b) A novel is never finished…2 years after you've 'finished' it, you'll find something that you want to add/delete/change.
Brian Crawford says
Thanks for the response, Nathan. It's been about a month since I sent the manuscript, so I'll send her a follow up email. And who knows… maybe the reminder will kick my submission to the top of her pile.
Lisa Dez says
I asked this same question on my very underutilized blog in December. I'm an obsessive reviser and editor and I can't make myself stop. But the truth is that my manuscripts are somewhere around a thousand times better after I'm been picking at them for four or five months after I thought they were done. Sometimes a whole subplot that adds depth and improves the through-line will occur to me weeks after I've typed "the end". Whole new characters will take shape and start having conversations in my head. (I'm aware that I need professional help, thank you.)
The biggest mistake I've made was querying when I thought I was done, only to find I wasn't. (Nathan saw one of those sad partials.) So I've learned that this is one place it pays to be obsessive and I let myself pick–forever.
And yes, Alan. My dog can recite my manuscript to me–backward.
Ruth says
Hi Nathan,
I was wondering if you'd mind answering a very basic question: What are foreign rights? I can't find a good definition anywhere. I have a vague idea that it means publishers paying authors for the right to sell their work in different countries.
Case: As I live in New Zealand, I can't buy a lot of books that have been released only in the States, as our bookstores don't stock them (presumably because foreign rights haven't been sold). However, I've recently discovered an online New Zealand store which does sell these books, and ships them from the US. If this online store can sell them, why can't the physical stores do so?
What does the concept of foreign rights MEAN – that physical bookstores may now stock the books? If online bookstores can already do so, it seems a bit superfluous. On the other hand, even if this online NZ store didn't offer to sell books released only in the States, I'd still be able to buy them from Amazon or places like that.
I'm just completely confused by the whole concept, as you can probably tell, and was wondering if you'd mind clarifying it? I apologise if you've already covered this issue, but I couldn't find it in your FAQs or in a search of your blog.
Thanks!
Ruth.
Jen C says
CapitalistPoet,
I used to be exactly the same! My last project (RIP) was researched and outlined and plotted and characterised for months before I ever wrote a word. I think it's an excellent way to learn about the process of writing.
With my current WIP I'm a lot more relaxed and confident that I know what I'm doing and that everything will turn out the way it's meant to. Now I just put some dot points right onto the page with what I want to happen, and delete them as I go.
As far as revisions go, I have no idea. I have 8500 words to go before I finish my first draft, so I can let you know when I get stuck into it!
Whirlochre says
I believe things can always be improved. I'm guessing there are loads of published writers who look back on their first novels and wonder why they wrote some of it the way they did.
But this is different to infinite tinkering, and I suppose once the editorial ball is rolling, the days of your WIPly mutation are numbered. And so they should be.
Laura Martone says
Jen P –
It's probably too late to respond to you, but I, too, am looking for beta readers right now… fellow writers with whom I can trade manuscripts (you know, you critique mine; I critique yours).
If you're ready for that possibility, let me know! I'm looking to get as many perspectives as possible – and help others along the way…
–Laura
Laura Martone says
Three cheers to Alan Orloff and Bane of Anubis – you some funny dudes!
Alan, I especially loved your "prologue" sign – I'm going through that EXACT crisis right now! Where to put the info in the prologue – or whether to get rid of it entirely? Ah, decisions, decisions!
Mary Hoffman says
When the copy editor tells you it's been "signed off" – about three months before publication.
Thereafter best not to re-read them.
Joseph L. Selby says
I agree with anonymous from way back at the beginning. Once my revisions are making it worse, not better, then it's finished.
Lisa Iriarte says
For me, the novel is never finished. I make it as good as I can. I send it through my critique group. I let my author friends rip it to shreds. I make changes based on their recommendations. Then I begin sending it out, but all the while it's circulating, I am still getting feedback and looking for new sets of eyes to give it a read through. It's amazing to me that a new reader can pick up a time glitch in chapter two after over a year from the completion of the novel, even though dozens of other readers missed it, but that happened to me.
Melanie Avila says
[This has nothing to do with the post.
Nathan, have you seen or heard about this?
https://frontstreetattackbird.blogspot.com/
Apparently there's a bird in SF's financial district attacking passerbys. Just thought I'd give you a heads-up.]
Melanie Avila says
Oh, and there's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRp_D1g7Bv0&feature=player_embedded
Stephen Duncan says
Simple answer, Nathan. You call George Lucas and ask. If no special editions are required, it's done.
Mira says
Melanie – that blog is hilarious. I can't believe that someone created a whole blog about that bird.
I have got to see this. I'm taking my whole staff down there at lunch to look at the attack bird. Oh! I'll use it as motivational tool. Get your work in on time, or the bird'll get you. Ha ha.
Rick, I just realized – you put in an adverb just for me??? Awwww. That was so sweetly done. And I'll put in an adverb just for you: I heartily congratulate you on the by-line.
Mira says
Christine – in terms of MS being rushed to agents too quickly, I'm going to disagree with you. I think it happens all the time.
This may not apply to everyone, and I could be wrong, of course, but even when I played the agent-for-a-day game, I saw that happening. People attached pages that had lots of potential, but, imho, weren't ready yet. The pages needed editing.
I've seen it with my friends alot. They finish it, get all excited and rush it out.
But that's a real mistake. I think it's important to remember, that once an agent says 'no', that's it. You can't query the agent again on that piece.
So, it make sense to not only have several beta-readers look at our work, but a professional editor as well before submitting it to query. The query process is not a time to get feedback. Get that before you query.
Nathan Bransford says
Ruth-
I talk about that in the Basics of Publishing Contracts post in the FAQ.
Nathan Bransford says
melanie-
Wow, that's hilarious! I'm ducking when I go through the FiDi.
BarbS. says
The other evening I heard Danielle Steele tell a New York Times interviewer that she can look at one of her published books and find 15 things to change.
Anonymous says
Nathan,
That was several email programs involved. My companie's, yahoo, a major DSL server, Gmail. You name it I have had lost emails with several email programs. The larger the size the more likely it will not make it. And in rural areas there is not a lot to choose from.
Anonymous says
To me it seems like the best option is to make sure your MS actually got there. Agents need to think about the fact not all of their clients live in areas where technology is fool proof. A good writer does not equal computer whiz.
wendy says
This is a hard question for me to answer as it's the thing I find hardest about writing. I fine-tune over a very long period, and while I fine-tune the story grows and develops along with my understanding of the characters and the story's meaning. I don't start with any plan, perhaps I should, I just write until the denouement.
Perhaps the novel is finished when the author can read it through and feel satisfaction that the characters have said everything they need to say and that the theme and meaning have been clearly explained.
The sticky point, however, is the syntax. Maybe every writer finds this element the most challenging, I'm not sure. I certainly do. And this is the reason I find it difficult to finish a story. On the last read I'm feeling confident all is well; but the next day, shoddy expression seems to dominate the prose.
I've read where one (published) writer claimed he could do a novel in one draft and said that anything more would only be needed because of a lazy, careless attitude. He must have had incredible concentration, a detailed outline, and a rare ability to write the perfect sentence.
Ali Katz says
When you can't stand the sight of it anymore.
Give it a couple of weeks. Read through again. Fix the hiccups and accept the fact you're done.
Anonymous says
My solution to this is to walk away from the project for a minimum of a month, work on other projects and then come back to the piece. Then, with fresh eyes, my editing is more that of a reader than the creator. When I have done this three times (I have to stop somewhere) I do not allow myself to tweak it anymore. Having a background in art (of the pencil and paint variety) helps me to realize that the artist can continue to retool a piece forever, often covering up the masterpiece that they were originally moved to create. You have to hit the breaks and move on to the next piece or else the muse won't be given new blank slates to inspire.
Anonymous says
This is a great question. I think the short answer is, usually you don't know, you decide. Usually from some combination of your gut (listening to, trusting in) and feedback. (Except for the first decision, which is "this is ready to show another human being for the first time" — total gut.) And then, through some combination of exposure-to-world and exposure-to-an-older-you, you figure out how right your decision was, and if you want to revisit the manuscript.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, "finished" is often a moving target. A mix of having the story emotionally solid and well-crafted on the page, and being ready to let it go at that point. Aligning one of those windows with publication (traditional or self) is what makes "finished" stick for me.