Very quickly in the comment thread from yesterday’s post on revisions, Rick Daley raised an interesting revision checklist question: “Can you sit back and read through it without a compulsive need to continue changing it?”
This got me to thinking: when do you know you’re finished with revisions?
When a writer is faced with a possibly infinite task, when do you close the computer and say, “I’m done?” And do you have any strategies for resisting a premature declaration of completion?
Scott says
Good topic, Nathan. I think the best solution is to get professional editing help. After you've made suggested corrections and had a second or third go-through with the editor, I think that would be the time to say you have done all you can do .. it's a wrap!
Sonja says
I once heard Garrison Keillor say, on the radio, that he was revising Lake Wobegon Days, even though it was already published.
Probably best not to send a novel off if you still *know* it needs changes, but conversely, there have been many writers who compulsively revise and can't seem to stop …
To me, it's ready when you read it through and imagine an agent reading it without feeling shame.
Of course, with the quorum of shameless people out there, that may not work for everyone.
Anonymous says
Pro-editing is a waste of money. Get a good beta reader if you want extra eyes.
Many writers will continue to want to tinker with a MS even after publication, because it's in their nature.
"Finished" is when someone else other than the author reads it and doesn't find it wanting. It's not too short so they think something was rushed and it's not so long that they wish something hadn't dragged for pages. They don't see problems in the characterization.
JohnO says
Okay, two comments on this post, which is a good one.
First, Leonardo da Vinci: “Art is never finished, only abandoned.”
Second, (in John's less graceful prose): The more you look at your novel, the less you see.
The only way (for me, at least) to make effective revisions after the fourth or fifth pass is to take increasingly long breaks from it, or get story feedback from reliable readers … because the ability to see the story clearly pretty much vanishes.
freddie says
For me, it's about listening to my gut feelings. If I don't feel it's done, even though there's technically nothing "wrong," I'll leave the ms alone for a couple of weeks and go back and reread with fresh eyes to make sure I've not missed anything. And beta readers help.
Anonymous says
When the changes you keep making don't make it any better.
Slinger says
When you're not ashamed of it anymore? I don't think you ever really know. Sometimes you just have to cut the cord.
Natalie says
Honestly, I don't have a clue. I think any book can just keep changing forever.
On my not-so-nice days, I think a writer might be done editing when they're on the verge of hating everything about the book they've read it so many times. At that point, I don't think you can do any more without damaging the story.
Margaret Yang says
Hardest question in the universe! Mine have to go through more than one beta read (by different readers) and also need a cooling off period. Time is the best editor, after all.
All I know for sure is that it's never as done as I think it is. My betas are amazing people who make me smite my own forehead when they point out my errors.
Kimber An says
Revisions are like dirty laundry- neverending.
It's not finished until it hits the shelves.
As to finished-enough-to-submit, I've developed a methodical way of revising for submission into Queryland whereby I avail myself of all the free help I can get, everything from the Crunchiest Critters on the planet to the best websites for writers, like Sime-Gen by Jacqueline Lichtenberg. Even so, I know as a never-before-published author that there are some things I won't learn until I'm in the process and they're as random as agents' and editors' hairstyles because each have their own ways of doing things and the market is constantly changing. So, I polish, submit, query, forget, and then start the next story.
It's easy to fall into two traps. One, excitedly send out a story on the first draft. Two, never, ever finish revising or editing out of fear of rejection should the story actually be submitted.
Melissa says
Good question. I'm one of those people who will edit forever. I know I'm done editing when all I'm doing is changing the word arrangement and not actually improving on anything.
worldofhiglet says
Interesting.
Surely only the writer knows when it is finished? Beta readers, writing groups and even editors may all have an opinion but you have the final say and you make the decision about your work.
Constantly revising and updating *after* you have edited and polished means either your book wasn't finished or you are suffering from "Lucas Syndrome". And we all know that leads to the Dark Side…
Kristi says
I have to go based on feedback from beta readers and my critique group – I'm one of those that can always find a word to change, etc. and could go on forever in the revision process. There are definitely drawbacks to being a perfectionist.
Mira says
I get a 'click' inside me when something is finished.
It tells me 'it's done.'
That doesn't mean I couldn't improve it. I certainly hope, for example, that two years from now, I could look at what I'm writing today and improve it.
I might even re-do something later to make it better.
But, on some level, I know when I'm done working on something – it's finished, and it's ready.
But I would never reach that point without consulting my beta-readers (I assume by beta-readers, we mean friends, right?) I can not believe how helpful it is to get honest feedback about my writing. I'm very grateful to my….beta-readers.
Jen P says
Like Jon O, I think to "make effective revisions after the fourth or fifth pass is to take increasingly long breaks from it".
But – who do you trust as your 'beta readers'? Fellow online writers, friends, writing group? I have yet to dare ask anyone, and would be interested to know what works. The feedback on the youwriteon type websites often seems terse, and not very helpful, designed to just get the crit done so that the reader/writer can earn credits for getting their own work reviewed by others.
My trouble right now is a 40K WIP, got put on hold for two years. Now my writing is so different (better I'd like to think) it needs a whole new approach, not "just" an edit. It would become a different beast altogether, not a revised version.
Do I bother and finish it, or do I start afresh? I've decided to abandon right now, and work on my current (significantly different) WIP.
joelle says
I don't know how you know because I always "think" I'm done and then, guess what? I thought I was finished. I queried agents. One signed me on and then said, "Oh, by the way, could you add a climax to the end of this book?" I added 75 pages. He sold it to Putnam. My editor said, "Oh, by the way, please cut 75 pages." They came off the front end and throughout the middle. I sent it back to her. She said, "Oh, by the way, could you cut 65 more pages?" I did. I sent it back to her, thinking "now I've got it!" She sent it back to me and said, "Oh, by the way, could you now add in a bunch of stuff it's missing." I did that and mailed it to her yesterday. She's doing hard line edits now…then copyedits. The thing is, I ALWAYS THINK THAT I'VE DONE THE BEST I CAN DO, but apparently…I'm never going to finish this book! Haha. Well, I have a cover now and a pub date, so I guess I will have to finish it at some point…but you know what I mean? I just stop when I think I've done the best I can and don't see anything to fiddle with. Thank goodness I have a great editor who will actually KNOW when it's done, because obviously, I'm missing that gene!
Scott says
As for editing, I agree with those who have said it's finished when the stuff that needs tweaking finally dwindles to nothing and you're just rearranging out of some compulsion to make it new again.
As for the story itself, I usually have a ballpark resolution in mind, but it's when the calm washes over me silencing the voices that I know I'm at the end.
B. Jason Roer says
Great topic, Nathan! And fabulous "revisions" list the other day.
It is crucial to take as much time as you can between drafts. The problem is we get so close to our material, that we simply can no longer see the problems. Time allows you to see with fresh eyes.
Once you feel ready (for me it's after draft 2 or 3), you have to get the book to readers you trust. These people will help identify all the editorial issues remaining. And it wouldn't hurt to hand over that "revisions" list!
Then you go in for another round. I've found myself completely changing locations, cutting characters, adding characters, combining characters, changing names for easier reading, and quite a bit more.
Even then, I sent my novel out and received incredible editorial advice from an agent who enjoyed the MS, but felt it needed more strategic trimming before sending it to publishers. She helped me see even further "adventures" that could be cut or combined. This was priceless advice and it never would have happened had I not sent it out in the first round of queries for the MS.
For me, the novel was finished (by which I mean 'ready to go out to agents') when I was able to sit back and just enjoy the heck out of reading the MS, and see the action in front of me.
The fact is, even after the sale, you won't be finished. That's when the work really begins!
Cheers,
Jason
Mira says
Jen P – I want to address the beta-reader issue. It's really important to get the right ones.
You can find them in alot of places – there are on-line writing groups; brick-and-mortar writing groups; writing classes with possible mentors and colleagues; friends and family who have a good ear for writing.
But – I've found that bad 'beta-readers' are dangerous. If you have someone read your work, and you can feel intuitively that they don't 'get' or appreciate your work, drop them. Do NOT ask them to read your writing again.
Try the next person. You'll find someone who 'gets' your work, likes or even loves it, and can tell you the holes and flaws. That's invaluable.
Chuck H. says
Every time I see the phrase "beta readers" I flash on a bunch of little fish wearing eye glasses. My critique group is very good at saying "Chuck, that thing's done, send it out".
Mara Wolfe says
I know that I'm done with revisions when I start changing the revisions I've already made. When you start second-guessing changes you've made, it's probably time to put the red pen down.
Kathleen MacIver says
When you're sick of the story? LOL!
Actually, that's what I've used so far…but I still consider myself a newbie.
I suppose it's good that my writing skills and knowledge is growing at the pace where, by the time I finish a re-write, they've grown enough that I discover even more that can be improved…but I'll be glad when I can read something I've written a year later, and still find it 95% well-written! At this point, I STILL see major things that should be improved, even after eight re-writes. But it's time to move on.
Anonymous says
My 3rd grade son is reading the Little House on the Prairie series right now. He keeps pausing to point out things he thinks aren't written correctly. Looks like poor Laura Ingalls Wilder could possibly still be working on her books if she hadn't at some point said, "Done."
Anonymous says
Change is one thing. Improvement is another. If you've reached the point at which all you're doing is the former, maybe it's done. OTOH, if you still have passages you really love but which don't do anything other than make you feel good about your writing, there's still stuff to fix.
What a terrific word verification: traphowl
Great description of where I am with "completed" WIP on which I just wrote THE END last night. Yeah, right, more like THE BEGINNING. 😎
Ink says
You know when the pain behind your eyes and your failing peripheral vision signal an oncoming brain aneurysm.
Seriously, though, there is no "done", only "done enough". A story in words is infinitely malleable. There's no definable "end" to these changes. Peter Matthiessen, for example, just rewrote three of his novels into one (substantially different) novel, and earned a National Book Award for the effort. Any book, published or unpublished, could be treated the same (though rarely with such fortuitous results, I'm guessing). So, there's only that "done enough", and that recognition occurs, I think, from a confluence of factors, examples being:
*You're happy with it, on a personal level, and feel it tells the story you want it to tell.
*You're sick of it, so sick of it that the thought of going through another revision results in spontaneous post-concussion syndrome.
*You've exhausted your critiques and analysis… the road forward is dark dark dark.
*You convince someone to represent/publish/buy the story in question.
pjd says
When is your child old enough to ride his bike to the store alone, across the big scary intersection?
When are you ready to ask that special someone to marry you?
When is a house fully decorated? (All I know is that after 20 years, my wife still thinks ours can use some changes.)
I don't think there is a correct answer to your question, Nathan. It depends on too many variables with each individual project to come up with solid rules or even loose guidelines.
Bill Mabe says
Wow. Great question. Having taken far too long to write a PhD dissertation, I can attest that it's easy to revise a manuscript endlessly.
I like the indicators that others have suggested: being able to read without feeling compelled to edit, and after a reliable reader–a professional or just someone you trust–has given it a thorough read.
I might add that after you've satisfied the above two criteria and queried a few agents, you might reassess the finishedness of the novel based on agent feedback.
Of course, I wouldn't rely on an agent to decide if a novel is finished since that's not his job, but would be open to revise my assessment (and the novel) based on his comments.
Mike says
At some point it isn't the manuscript anymore, it's you. Any decision is better than no decision so make a decision and live with the results. If you make a mistake, learn form it.
Neil says
Hey Nathan, if I recall the advice correctly, you're done with revisions when your agent tells you you're done with revisions. Right?!
Mike says
That should have said learn from it.
Cat Moleski says
Don't know, haven't gotten there yet, but I hope to get there soon!
Paul Michael Murphy says
I send it out when I can't stand to look at the thing again.
I shouldn't have to suffer alone.
Matilda McCloud says
I agree with Anonymous–it's done when the changes aren't making it better. A beta reader read the most recent version of my novel and felt that I had gone overboard with the changes. He liked the previous version better. After some thought, I agreed with him. I was revising the life out of it. So I spent the last two weeks undoing most of these changes.
Liz Wolfe says
I'm asking myself that question right now. I'm going through (yet another) edit now. Then I have to rewrite the ending. I'll probably let it rest for a bit, then read through the whole thing again. Hopefully, that read-through will only result in tiny little tweaks and I'll be done.
But sometimes, it's just that I can't stand to look at the manuscript again.
Lunatic says
When it's sold and in print.
Fred
karen wester newton says
I've often compared having an unsold novel to being perpetually pregnant. But generally, I give a first draft to my critique group and a few other readers, listen to their feedback, make some changes (often radical changes if their suggestions/comments give me good ideas), proof it, and print it on paper to proof again. I also read it out loud. Once I can read it all the way through and not want to change anything, I give it to my agent. Sometimes she makes suggestions, but not always. At that point, I consider it done.
Anna says
I don't know if I've reached that, or if it's truly possible.
maybe it's a sense of, "Well, I THINK it's there…"
is anything really ever done in this life? or is that a cop-out?
I'm unsure. maybe I need more tea…
Anonymous says
For me (agented) I went as far as I could on my own, then read writing books, revised, then had beta readers, revised, and then sent it out. Agents liked what they saw enough to offer suggestions–so I used this along with doing the same thing again.
There is a danger in hanging on to it– you might not ever let go. Of course you have to have the novel in top form when you send it out– but there will be a point where YOU have done all you can and you must pull the plug. You have to trust that if you have something that is worthwhile and has potential you will be recognized. Had I not taken the plunge and fired it out there I would not be where I am now– agented and revising a bit again before submission.
And by the way, you need to make very good friends with revision. I'm to the point now where I actually enjoy it.
scott g.f. bailey says
This is a fine question, to which I don't think there's any set answer. I started querying my novel when it felt "done." I had put everything into it that I thought it needed, and I couldn't find anything wrong with the story elements, and the prose was as good as I could make it. My agent had a suggestion (one sentence) that resulted in my writing an additional 15,000 words and revising every chapter of the book. It's much better now, so he was right to make his suggestion.
The night I was finishing up my line edits before sending the revisions back to my agent, I was still revising scenes. If I looked at it again, I would find stuff to change. So, not "finished" in one sense, but it's time to let it go and move on. When the publisher's editor sends me a revision letter, I'll see that I'm not "finished" at all.
scott g.f. bailey says
Anon @10:18 said, "And by the way, you need to make very good friends with revision. I'm to the point now where I actually enjoy it."
This is so true. Revisions are where the real writing happens. I see a first draft as a mere gathering of materials, not really writing.
Michelle Sagara says
I send the book to my editor when I cannot stand the sight of it and I'm moving words around on the page and the results do not seem better in any way to me.
But every writer processes things differently.
ryan field says
You know when it's finished for querying when you feel good about sending it. You know it's neat and clean and you've followed all the rules.
But it's hard to know when it's finished for publication. This is where a good copyeditor you know and trust becomes important. They always tell you the truth. And even then it's hard to know.
Nathalie says
I have like an inside thermometer. The rise of the temperature is equivalent to the degree of satisfaction when I revise. I re-read and find improvement to make; I listen to my critique group, and go "Great suggestion! Can't believe I missed that (really a book is a group effort, from the initial writing to finding its place in the hands of the reader, at least for a baby like me). I go to conferences, and gets amazing professional insights from award wining authors (they have such a sharp eye). It takes me few days, but I get excited when I re-write or make corrections.
Then comes a point where the temperature is very high, a point where I can read it and like it like I just fall in love all over again, and a point where I see nothing but its strengths.
I decide its time to let the baby leave the house.
All the while, I'm aware that an agent, or editors might come with amazing ways to make it even stronger.
I love my story, and believes in it like my child goes to college, but I'm also psychologically prepared, and at peace, if asked to make additional revisions.
Melanie Avila says
I'm two and a half chapters away from what I hope are my final edits so… excellent timing. I plan to have two more readers go through it and I hope that after that it's ready to send out (be on alert Nathan.)
I feel like it's almost ready now, so unless my readers point out something crucial that I've missed in four drafts, I'll release it to the wild.
Casey says
I think Rick has a good point. There are chapters in my novel that I fly through reading and enjoy every time I do. I don't pause, I don't tweak. They're good. Other chapters take twice as long to read because I'm pausing and thinking about this or that. When I can read through the whole thing like I do those sweet spots, I'll get a second and third opinion and take it from there.
It's not fool proof. I think getting professional feedback is truly the key.
Kristi says
Chuck H. – that was funny. I use different beta readers depending on what I'm writing. I use my critique group (through SCBWI) and mom for my writing for juveniles (my mom was a reading recovery teacher for years and knows her picture books). My critique group gives me feedback on topics that were on Nathan's revision list yesterday. I use other friends and family for my adult work but that's for more overall impressions than line edit type stuff. A good reader will tell you what's not working but also what IS working.
My critique group has the "tough love" approach which I love, so find a group that fits your style. With my last picture book, they told me they loved my "voice" and the ending, but that I had to cut over 300 words! When you hear the same thing from more than one person, take it to heart and look at it – so I did cut 300 words. On the flip side, hearing great things from more than one person is fun too and tells you what you're doing well!
Ulysses says
I'm with DaVinci on this: my work is never finished, it's abandoned.
I think it a personal judgement thing. A writer who can read through his/her manuscript without feeling the urge to change a word is, I think, dead. However, each draft of a manuscript requires a considerable effort and there comes a point when either:
1) The changes I'm making are so minor that they don't repay the effort required to note and make them.
OR
2) As mentioned before, the changes aren't making my work better.
At the point where I'm not seeing any value resulting from the effort of revision, I'm done.
As for resisting the urge to announce premature completion… well, that's just not something a man talks about.
Er… I mean, um…
Once I've finished a draft I get a little over-excited, it's true. My prose is flawless when I set it aside. But with the passage of time, I suspect it rots like meat left out of the refrigerator. All kinds of bad stuff creeps in while it ages so that the next time I read over it, I see all kinds of faults. I don't think I experienced that more than a couple of times before I realized that one or two drafts wasn't enough. I have to write things again and again until my sense of diminishing returns tells me it's time to move on.
Alan Orloff says
Some signs you're done:
Your critique partners no longer answer your emails or return your calls.
You've memorized the first twenty pages, word for word.
Your spouse has memorized the first twenty pages word for word, from hearing you recite them in your sleep.
You've changed the main character's name from Ryan to Bryan to Brian to Brianna to Elvis to ZXVLYT#&GR to King Machinar III to Fluffy and back to Ryan. Twice.
You're debating whether the Chevy Camaro on page 245 should be white or "eggshell."
You had a prologue, then incorporated it into the story, then took it out, then put it in as an epilogue, then removed it and now plan to offer it on your website as "bonus" material.
You've translated the manuscript into Hebrew to see if it works any better going right-to-left. (Strangely, it does.)
You've read the entire manuscript aloud, both frontward and backward, in front of a mirror and then in front of your dog (and the fourth time through, the dog left the room).
Finally, as Kimber Ann said, the book is on the shelves!
KayKayBe says
This is lame, I know, but I am going to quote my own blog about when I will start querying…
"I will be patient, waiting to query until I can read through the MS without having to stop and change anything. Seeing possibility for change is okay, but seeing something that has to change is not."
editing and persistance blog entry
kaykaybe.blogspot.com
Bane of Anubis says
Unfortunately, never… Maybe Microsoft can add that feature to Word 2010 – the paper clip pops up and says "You're done. Congratulations! Would you like me to find you an agent?"