Kia Abdullah suggested this topic a few weeks back.
In her words: “Should writers know their dangling modifiers from their past participles or does creativity trump all?”
In my words: how important is creativity over craft?
And if your answer is “they’re both important,” what’s the mix? Could someone carry a story through sheer storytelling creative genius alone or do they need some adherence to novel-writing conventions?
Liz says
Creativity can trump story construction, but better be a darn good storyteller. Even then, if your writing is so full of grammatical errors, might be hard for reader to follow your great story. I'd rather someone really read the words of my great story rather than skim for the next plot point.
There is one author I love but whose writing I sometimes have to reread to make sure I'm following. And in some books editing has been awful — lots of obvious spelling, punctuation, grammar mistakes. Interupts flow of story. But I keep reading…
Laura Martone says
There's no formula for greatness, I'm afraid. Sometimes, the craft shines through. Sometimes, it's the creativity. And sometimes, I'm not sure why something works… it just does.
nicbeast says
You can teach a storyteller to write. I'm sure you can teach someone how to tell a good story.
Dawn VanderMeer says
I think it's 55 percent creativity, 49 percent craft. The bigger question is whether or not writers have to be good at math. Hee! Okay, I was kidding.
My serious answer is that I don't know the mix, but you need a heck of a lot of both. Think of all the things that make us see improvement in our work. Many people can't sell their first novels, but they sell their second ones. Are they becoming more creative or honing their craft? I think upping one's craft can push a story from good to salable. The flip side is that we NEED the creativity for good storytelling.
I think "storytelling creative genius" implies someone is talented at both because a good storyteller knows how to hook a reader or listener, build tension, pace the story, make each character sound different–things people can improve through craft classes. If someone is a good storyteller, he or she can take grammar classes to learn about past participles or whatever. Can creativity be learned or just honed?
My best answer: we need plenty of both. 🙂
Ink says
I have a little bit of a problem with how casually people throw around terms like "bad writing". Bad writing, in a craft sense, is not often seen in published books. Mediocre craft, okay. Poor writing in comparison with other good, published writers (and a few good unpublished writers), yes. But that's not bad writing.
Stephanie Meyer and Dan Brown may not be great prose stylists, but that does not make bad writing. They may lack, on the craft side, when compared with Marilynne Robinson or John Le Carre. But they are far, far, far better than most of what's seen in submission piles. They're craft, if not beautiful, is effective, especially when you consider that things like pacing are elements of craft.
mlsfleming said: "My mentor and I grappled over this. My prescriptive nonfiction is written as I talk, with incomplete sentence punch lines or asides after the sentence. HE HATES it. But he also knows the voice is a chat with my women friends. So…"
But this is not an absence of craft… this IS craft. It's a specific style and structuring of language to create a particular effect.
Craft is what creates a particular experience, a very specific story rather than a general one. And if a story creates a specific and desired experience that many people want (and are willing to pay for) I don't think it can be called bad writing. It might have flaws that can be critiqued, but that's not the same thing.
Rick Daley says
Thanks Marilyn 😉
Really, though…it's all predicated on the primary purpose of the piece of prose you're pondering (sorry about that, been hanging out with Peter Piper).
In general, we will write either to inform, or to entertain. If we are writing to inform, e.g. non-fiction, then I think craft has higher weighting. I don't know about you, but I don't like it when people get creative with facts.
If we are writing to entertain, then creativity is critical.
WORD VERIFICATION: squit. I'm not really sure what it is, but I bet it's icky.
robin says
I think it depends on the reader. Some readers can ignore less-than-stellar craft if the plot is complex and the pacing strong. Others prefer the strong literary element, and they get their joy from a perfectly crafted sentence. I do think, however, that a basic understanding of grammar will strengthen almost anyone's writing — and expand their learning curve so that their creativity can reach more people.
Kristi says
This is off topic but there's a great interview with Nathan today on the Guide to Literary Agents blog for those who are interested.
Mira says
Well, this is interesting.
Some of this may be how we define craft vs. creativity.
I guess I see things like pacing and story structure and character development as a part of creative talent, rather than craft.
If someone has no idea how to pace, I'm not sure you can teach them how to do it. I think you can teach someone how to do it better, or someone can learn through practice to improve, but I don't think you can instill a knowledge of pacing in someone who doesn't have it.
I could be wrong there, though.
I'm also not sure exactly how important the distinction is – except that I think of creativity as coming from inside of us, and craft as external conventions.
But I guess my point is I think creativity is much more than just the story idea. It's about telling the story in a way that captivates people. That's an innate skill. I think.
Diana says
When I am reading the short story submissions, if the writer grabs my attention and pulls me into the story, then I don't see the flaws. I choose the stories that do grab my attention and hold until the end. Punctuation, grammar, sentence structure, all of that gets fixed in the editing process when I am looking for it.
On the other hand, a grammar and punctuation perfect story that bores me ends up in the reject pile.
However, it would help me tremendously if writers would learn the rules of grammar and apply them to their stories before they submit them.
Grabbing the reader's attention trumps over all.
Rick Daley says
I love what Anon @ 12:37 said:
I love what Rick Daley said
Sorry all, I'm feelin' frisky today 😉
Q says
I think that whatever a writer does, he had better be consistent about it. If he makes grammatical errors to make a point, he'd better make the same ones. If he's brilliantly creative in the beginning, he'd better be brilliantly creative in the middle and end, too.
As for strict conventions…it should be readable and make sense.
Terry says
Marsha, After reading your comment, I stopped by your blog.
Very well done and I agree with you. Great analogy. A bit more water for me, please.
Ricki Schultz says
You definitely need both.
Creativity is part of how you hook an agent; however, if you're unpublished, you should strive to make your MS impeccable in terms of grammar and the like because that can also help you hook an agent.
I blogged about this very issue last week (as a result of two posts–from this and another blog, actually).
I'll be finishing that two-part post with a focus on grammar/formatting/submission guidelines tonight. If anyone's interested in offering their two cents, I'd love to hear from you.
Thanks for giving us another great question to ponder!
Ricki Schultz
http://www.rickischultz.wordpress.com
Anonymous says
60% story, 35% presentable execution (incl. grammar, syntax, spelling, formatting,presentation to agents/pubs), 5% luck.
~The Anonymizer
Jude Hardin says
If a writer doesn't have the time or inclination to polish the grammar, punctuation, syntax, etc., of a piece, or hire someone to do it for him/her, then I don't have the time or inclination to read it. I think most agents and editors probably feel the same way.
wendy says
Well, perhaps, the story verses craft equates to ideas verses how those ideas are presented. I've always thought that the way the ideas are presented is more important than the ideas, themselves.
I think we can take any ideas and make those ideas something ordinary through poor technique, or we can transmute those ideas into a thing of beauty and art with correct use of writing techniques like grammar puncuation, word choice, syntax,etc, that bring those ideas alive and make them shine. Correct use of writing techniques helps the reader to trust the author and suspend disbelief and to engage with the characters.
It's not what you say it's the way that you say it.
No publisher or agent will take a work seriously unless it's written excellently. The company's don't want to spend time and money on a poorly crafted story when there are so many others that need less revision. The exception is work written by celebrities with a guaranteed market.
Ink says
Mira,
I think pace is entirely a craft element. Creativity may allow you to imagine a series of exciting events… but they won't be exciting to the reader unless the craft is effective. The exciting car chase might be bloated, slow and unreadable. Pace is created through the use of specific techniques that carry you through these events in an effective way. That is, craft.
To me, at least, creativity gives you events, characters and scenarios, and craft is how you recreate that imagined experience for the reader. It's craft that gives you a concrete experience, and that includes the pacing of a story. Now those techniques may come easier to some than others (and may be deployed with varying degrees of consciousness)… but they're still techniques.
I say that as someone who has written, shall we say, a few bloated stories in my time. And this was not a creative failing but a technical one, a failing that can be corrected through the proper application of craft and technique in the revision process.
Don't make me break out the T.U.R.T.L.E POWER to convince you…
Anonymous says
What does The Lost Symbol have?
60/40? 70/30? 50/50?
what does harry Potter I have?
Marilyn Peake says
Kristi, thanks for mentioning Nathan's interview posted on the Guide to Literary Agents blog. Wonderful interview with lots of great information! Your announcement came at a great time for me – I'm spending the entire day today updating my website and surfing publishing industry Internet sites. I don’t know if I’m more thrilled or intimidated at the HUGE amount of incredibly good writing available on the Internet. It’s mind-bogglingly (that’s actually a word – I looked it up in the Merriam-Webster OnLine Dictionary) amazing! The supply is endless.
Anonymous says
I think it varies by genre. Literary works place more emphasis on the writing than on the story,(to their detriment, if you ask me). Thrillers place undue emphasis on the story, less on the writing (The 41-year-old-initiate gazed down at the human skull cradled in his hands).
But there's no room for typos, run-ons, any of that kinda stuff found in a slush pile near you. If you're gonna say it, you've got to say it in a technically correct way, no matter how high- or lowbrow that way is.
reader says
I want a writer that cares about the techincal craft of writing just as much as the actual story.
Think of how awesome Steph Myers books would have been if they had been edited well. I cringe for her because they've almost become a joke within the YA crowd as a list of things you shouldn't do: rambling on aboiut details that never come to fruition of anything important, promising battles that never occur, mentioning someone is sparkly a thousand times. I feel bad for the author, but I also stand in horror when I think of how little editing must have been done by the pub. Why was she allowed to get away with it when all of it could've been so easily fixed with one more go-around? Hell, I would've fixed if for her free of charge.
reader says
"aboiut"
See, I need an editor myself! Ha!
PLA Anderson says
I'm with the people who say creativity trumps all. In most cases you need structure and readability, but really, when it comes down to it, the general public will read just about anything that is creatively compelling. A great story rules. Even if it is all in text or even bullets… if it is thrilling, compelling and somewhat understandable, it will get read.
Just my opinion, though.
Anonymous says
Underlying the breakdown is the fact that there are 2 pure kinds of "writers."
1) your idea generators or "storytellers" (these kind love to come up with endless story ideas, outlines, cool concepts, etc. But alas, not all of them can actually write, meaning oftentimes they are unable to execute on their own ideas. Many of these types are specifically driven by some personal interest, i.e. Robin Cook as an M.D. was driven to write medical thrillers, etc. They've got a REASON to write, and everything required of them on the road to publication is just a technical obstable they will figure out how to get past (assuming they have the technical writing skills, see #2)
2) your generic, technically able writers (these guys know how to write from a techically correct, Stunk & White standpoint, but they come from no particularly interesting background, have no specific interests developed over long periods of time that lend themselves to comemrcial writing potential, and so many of these types become your bandwagon writers. They figure, well, secret societies are hot right now, I know how to write–I can write like that bestseller, (even though I didn't come up with his ideas first), and so there is a glut of competently written but uninspired copycat books in the wake of every bestseller.
You can see an analagous situation in the photography world. There are photgraphers, like Ansel Adams, who make a statement with their work because of some underlying passion (i.e. environmental). Then there are your stock photographers just out to make a buck or a living, who will take a technically perfect picture of a roll of toilet paper to put up for commission sale on a stock photo site.
So ask yourself, which type of writer are you? 1 or 2? And whichever you are, the REAL quesiton is–do you have enough of the OTHER type to make your work commercially viable?
Anonymous says
I don't think creativity trumps all. It is more important than craft, but only slightly. A unique combination of the two is what makes a good writer, and for each great writer the combination is different. I know that's not really specific, but if it was a strict mathematical formula anyone could do it.
Anonymous says
I always thought that you get creative, do the best you can with your grammar and format, and then an editor helps get it ship shape.
Sure seems like that isn't the case, though. Does anyone edit once a book is in the system of agents and publishers?
So…I suppose it's more 50-50 nowadays. If an editor was an editor (ie: there was more money to go around for all to do their originally intended jobs) then creativity could trump form to more of an 80/20 ratio.
I have a friend who makes board games and he is creative as anything. He had to hire someone to keep him edited and going down "the right line." All at his risk of perhaps never selling his game. So I guess each of us has to hire someone if we can identify that we are not the english major types, but have a creative story to tell.
Kim says
Hey, the way people speak nowadays doesn't follow many rules. Sometimes it makes sense to read a book in the fashion we speak. Dangle a participle if you want. The people who want to read that way won't care. It will "resonate" with them.
If you write a deep thoughtful novel, it might matter.
Rosie O'Donnell has many best sellers and her sentences are little fragments of thoughts. Seems crazy and obviously the famous part is what sells the books. However, her fans write to her with "You are a natural writer" type of comments. "Your work touched me deeply." Stuff like that.
There's a place for crummy writing, and it's not necessarily a bad place.
Ryan Potter says
Although I've heard the words "dangling modifiers" and "past participles" before, I can honestly tell you I have no clue what they are and I really don't care.
Find the story and write it the way you see fit. That's what I did, and I have a debut novel coming out in less than 5 months.
Kristi says
Marilyn – thanks. I take short breaks from writing my ms by reading literary blogs. I agree there's a ton of information out there. Also, I have swine flue and can't focus on writing today so I'm doing more reading than work.
Marilyn Peake says
Kristi,
Wow, you’re really dedicated to the publishing world if you’re even reading today. Hope you recover quickly from the swine flu!!
LCS249 says
I always found Susan Sontag particularly difficult to read specifically because of her ignoring all convention. She seemed to be 99% creativity and 1% … the other thing.
Hemingway murdered grammar, but was gripping as an author.
Me, I'm an OCD about grammar. Alas.
LCS249 says
Still allowing those annoying Anon comments, I see. No idea if they're one person or several …
Sarah Scotti-Einstein says
I am uncertain about why one or the other… it's like asking if a pie needs filling or a crust. It needs both.
That said, knowing the rules isn't the same as being controlled by them. It's your writing. Sometimes a sentence fragment is better than a full sentence. Sometimes not.
Jill Edmondson says
You've gotta know what the rules are before you start breaking them…
Jill
mkcbunny says
I think that rules can be broken to emphasize a creative vision, but the writer has to have a vision strong enough to support that approach.
Great storytelling and consistency of style are key if you're going to be a rebel. You can't just "be creative" and throw rules to the wind if you aren't good enough to carry the weight of an entire work in that manner.
Gilbert J. Avila says
Would "A Clockwork Orange" be publishable today?
Wredheaded Writer says
No, Nate, you are the decider.
A friend of mine who's a marvelous middle-grade storyteller has a learning disability that wasn't diagnosed until adulthood. Forget spelling and grammar – the rules just won't stick. But man, can she tell a tale.
I keep telling her she has a wonderful gift, and that there's plenty of retired English teachers she can pay to catch the technical errors. However it's tough paying a buck a page or whatever for proofing, and a critique group doesn't react fast enough when an agent or editor requests revisions PDQ. So as long as there are agents who will reject a manuscript on the basis of a single misspelling or grammar glitch (yes, there are such), then creativity and clerk-typist skills will be equally important.
So sadly, it's 50/50.
Jan says
"The prose only needs to be competent enough to be invisible to the reader."
And that requires a serious bit of craft. You may not be able to verbalize all the "rules" but if you're not in control of your language and you're just vomiting up whatever comes out for the sake of creativity…you're going to crash and burn.
I think they're 50/50…and if someone forced me to put one ahead of the other, I would put craft. You only need a fair bit of creativy to bring something wonderful to the table, but you need a good bit of craft to bring it to the table in a way that communicates.
Copyeditors are great for spelling and sorting out the complicated use of the subjunctive. But if your lack of control is more attention getting than your content, you're hosed.
AndrewDugas says
This is a foolish discussion.
Craft is the means for expressing creativity. Craft SERVES creativity.
AndrewDugas says
@Gilbert J. Avila
Do you mean to imply that "Clockwork Orange" lacks craft??? If anything, it is a master work of craft.
Tight, controlled, well and evenly plotted, consistent of voice down to the usage of a jargon created by the author.
The question of whether a publisher would take it on today — it really fits the time period in which it was published — seems to have nothing to do with either craft or creativity.
So what's your point?
Nathan Bransford says
Needlessly hostile, Andrew.
AndrewDugas says
Sorry, I guess I just really love that book!
Apologies to Gilbert.
(Though I do hope he elaborates…)
Francy says
Hi y'all/I am frustrated because I was bumped from my last answer for double-clicking/or censored/which is what I want to back-track about/recently I was bumped more than once from the New York Times blog for being not on target/but I was/it was because I was too personal talking about my body on a photo shoot of a cancer patient. The other times I think they couldn't read or understand me/I felt terrible and am against censorship totally. Now for todays' topic/and I hope Nathan doesn't censor/I think that creativity is sheer craft/all those little rules/but that imagination is the part which is very deep and brings the work of art to life. This mystical/magical entity comes from letting go of the rest/the intellectual part and conjuring a detail which creates empathy in the reader. No contemplation can deliver the writer to this visionary place. It comes with practise/indentifying with perhaps a detail recognized through observation through life's experiences and rememberances/the the symbol of the cardinal/this bird is drawn by homeless people/hung up by their beds/and the bird sound is emulated by them.
Anonymous says
I'm a published author, represented by a well known agent.
I will say that one of the reasons I continued to get rejected wasn't because I had commas in the wrong places, it was that my stories weren't quite there yet. Once I realized that, I was able to focus on what really mattered, a meaty storyline that editors/agents want to sink their teeth into.
Yes, you should be careful of your grammar. Don't expect THEM to be overly excited about YOU, if you couldn't be bothered to send them the cleanest version possible.
Nevertheless, if it's a boring plot, all those neat, pretty words will still simply collect dust in the end.
Every day I make mistakes in my writing, but with each book I'm taking notes in the hopes that the next book can be just a little better, and so on…
Anonymously Yours 🙂
K. L. Romo says
I think creativity is more important for the reader to connect to the story than form. However, lets me honest, in this business, doesn't salability usually trump all?
Courtney Johnson says
I would think to say that craft doesn't matter is just…silly. People that think probably haven't ever read anything by someone with utterly atrocious grammar.
How can you be creative when you can't get across what it you're trying to say? Craft, grammar, style, all of it is a crucial form of the art form because it's based on language.
A painter can break all the rules of form because he's still creating something visual. Most viewers of that painting will still be able to get the meaning, even if the painter swirled his water colors in a previously unknown way.
It's just not the same with books, because language is a shared thing. In the same sort of way that you can't gain much from a book in French if you don't understand anything beyond Oui, nor can you expect to get much out of a book that blatantly ignores tons of style and grammar rules.
Sure, there are plenty of authors who break rules and some of them have even redefined the ways we think about those conventions, but they certainly don't ignore them completely.
Jon Robbin says
Should you want a reader to finish what you've written, then by all means there must be some convention in your work. Creativity is obviously a must since most every storyline has been explored already, but I'm of the opinion that you needn't desert readability in order to have a creative work. After all,readers won't get your creativity if they're struggling at the same time to learn your language. Be clear as well as creative.
J.J. Bennett says
Please say creativity is huge. If it's true, I have a chance at getting my book in peoples hands.
Jil says
"Imagination is more important than Knowledge" said Einstein.
A person perfect at grammar, but with no creativity, will never write a good story. The person who can create but has poor grammar can learn to excel as a writer.
To me good writing is when the author gets the exact reaction from his reader that he sets out for.