Kia Abdullah suggested this topic a few weeks back.
In her words: “Should writers know their dangling modifiers from their past participles or does creativity trump all?”
In my words: how important is creativity over craft?
And if your answer is “they’re both important,” what’s the mix? Could someone carry a story through sheer storytelling creative genius alone or do they need some adherence to novel-writing conventions?
Orange Slushie says
jjdebenedictis, i think that's a matter of taste. i want more out of my fiction than that. my reading is focussed more on language than story. i do need a story, but too much suspense ruins the journey for me (makes me hurry – i want to savour the words) and pedestrian writing alienates me.
i have to agree with most of the comments today. we once wanted to sign up a novel that had both an original take on an idea and that special magic every slush pile reader hopes to find. but it was technically awful. the writer struggled with sentence construction, and had no idea what a paragraph was for; nor was he able to understand the story's structural problems. it really held back the magic. we tried to work with the author to get it up to scratch, but he just couldn't do it, he didn't have the tools and knowledge. in the end we couldn't take it on. editors will fix up grammar but the work must meet a basic standard first: editors can't re-write your novel for you. and if you can't write a coherent sentence, then you can't communicate your ideas effectively – or, in my opinion, sweep anyone up in your story.
Paul Neuhardt says
You know, in re-reading Nathan's post, I think I would like to re-craft my response. I got caught up in the "creativity versus craft" debate and I'm sure that is really what he was asking.
"In my words: how important is creativity over craft?"
My answer, upon further review, becomes "Creativity is not at all more important than craft." Here is why I say that (and I do get to keep part of my last response, tee hee):
Creativity without craft produces wandering, meandering, incoherent and probably unreadable crap. Yes, I used the C word.
Craft without creativity produces stuff that probably isn't worth reading, but at least it doesn't grate on the reader's soul. It just bores her.
Creativity with craft produces everything from decent stories to really great novels.
Creativity with the craft to be able to flaunt convention deliberately and effectively is, to me, a higher mastery of craft than slavish devotion to the rules. It produces some stuff that might seem really weird, but it can also produce the things that make you go, "Wow."
So, how important is creativity over craft? I say creativity is useless without craft, while I can think of ways that craft can be useful without the creativity.
Just my $.02.
Orange Slushie says
Paul Neuhardt, I think you are on the money
Justine Hedman says
In my oppinion this question is purely dependant. It depends on what your story is about and who your audience is.
Say you're writing a book on How to Write… well, your grammer had better be bang on and your structure secure. You're audience would freak and refuse to read another book from you because it would prove you have no idea what you are doing.
If you are writing an unconventional or purely fictional story such as Dan Brown or Stephany Myers *chose those two because they were previously mentioned* then you have the chance to get a little unconventional with your writing because your readers won't be as tuned into the grammer as they are to the story.
Poetry is the same, if you are claiming to have writen a Sonnet, you best have followed the rules. If you are creating a poem for creativity, the sky's the limit.
For myself I would say that creativity is the most essential. I'm writing a fantasy… creative is the breath of life within my world. I use unconventional characters and creatures, some you'd have never even heard of. My plot is a series of twists and turns but overall, the original *or as original as one can get* story is what will set this book apart. Though grammar is important, it isn't as important as the story because I know the audience I'm trying to reach is about the storytelling, not the make up of it.
To put it simply: Know your audience and what is acceptable within your field. I also believe as afore mentioned by someone brilliant above *forgot your name sorry* you must also know the rules before you can break them. Don't go all unconventional because you don't know how to write, you must do it in a way that fits the story you're telling. Your story can only carry you so far, the structure is what makes it possible for your readers to follow. No matter how creative your story is, you must be able to communicate it to your audience in a way that makes sense. But really, what fun is it to read the same thing over and over again? You need a decent amount of creativity and craft for each project you're working on. Without either your work will not be published.
The percentage is completely dependant upon what you are trying to communicate and why. To put it simply: You must write something conventional or non, in a way that will please the audience you are trying to reach and you can't do that without structure, craft, creativity, originality, & a little bit of pixy dust.
Justine
Anonymous says
The problem with creative grammar is we writers tend to mentally edit and revise while we read…Imagine how hard that'll be if all rules of grammar and puntuation are thrown out the window!
Poor grammar and puntuation are both distracting and irritating. So yes, you need both to tell a good story.
Laura D says
You need to know the rules inside and out before you make the calculated risk to break them on purpose. It takes a master to acquire the new skill, and when they do it can be true magic.
Dharma Kelleher says
I'm all for creativity so long as it doesn't interfere with readability.
Joyce's "Finnegan's Wake" comes to mind. It's unreadable. On the other hand, Elmore Leonard often plays fast and lose with the rules and still his work is very readable.
James says
I've always struggled with creativity, not grammar. I learned to edit before writing, so I'll jump and say that creativity is more important. But does it trump all? Never. It's important to be able to convey what you mean accurately. If the writing is bad, but the story itself is gripping, I'd still read it.
Lucinda says
Can a house be built solely from imagination?
Bricks are the creativity.
Mortar is the craft that holds the bricks together.
One without the other would result in an unstable house.
50/50, hand in glove, balance…
One more thing, toil and sweat, perseverance and passion can often make up for defects in materials resulting in much more than a house…a home.
JDuncan says
As many have said here, the writing needs to be good enough to not trip up the reader. People will be impressed with exceptional writing, but you still better have a good story to go along with it. Poor writing will destroy a good story rather quickly in my opinion (like one page kind of quick).
However, even solid writing doesn't necessarily mean I will enjoy the story. Perfectly good grammar doesn't have much to do with the voice of the author, and they can be spot on with all of their participles and modifiers, but the voice isn't going to grab me for whatever reason. I just need to not notice the writing. I don't want my attention drawn to it. I want to get lost in the narrative, and that's creativity and the author's voice. The voice of the storyteller is perhaps the trump card for me. Writers with a knack for exceptional storytelling can make even ho-hum subject matter a compelling read. When I pick up a book off of the shelf, beyond an intriguing premise, I read a couple of pages for voice. If it doesn't sing for me, I put it back down.
Book of Matches Media says
My music theory teacher told me that it was important to learn everything you can about your craft, because once you know the rules you can break them. Holding on to the old standards of novel writing may not help, but STORY TELLING is the essence of it – knowing how to effectively tell a story. Creativity comes in to play when you determine HOW to tell that story and what "rules" (if any) you choose to break. With a little knowledge in the mechanics of what it is you want to accomplish, creativity trumps all.
Now if anyone will know it exists… that takes hard work and a bit of luck! That's not to say that just because you haven't published a "novel" that you aren't a quality story-teller. Simply that we too often judge someone's merits on how many people have weighted in on the art with their opinion (whether that's fandom or hatred – press is press). Would The Beatles still be considered one of the greatest bands of all time if only a few people ever got the chance to listen to them? The fact is, there are only 12 chords in music (much like there are only so many plots to tell). The difference then boils down to the creativity in which one presents those chords/plots/characters/conflicts/so on and furthermore (the scary "unknown") in how people react to it. To think creativity is secondary to craft is frankly a recipe for uninspired craft.
Sure, you may have written "the next great novel", but will anyone pay attention to it, or is it all just what we've seen before?
Gilbert J. Avila says
I meant that Clockwork Orange's made-up language forms and strange sentences would would make a first reader say "What the Hell?" Contextually it makes sense if I read it fast. I once likened reading it to running on a field of broken rocks; if you slowed down or stopped you'd trip and fall.
Jaleh D says
In some regards, I lean more towards creativity. The story is what I remember after I'm done reading, not so much with the how it was told. After all, The Unexpected Mrs. Pollifax has a rambly beginning and wordy sentences, but the story is so enchanting that I go back to reread it time and again. Though I reread it less often than the stories which are also better crafted.
All the aspects of craft, such as vocabulary, grammar, punctuation, sentence structure, and pacing, are critical to properly communicate the great idea. If I don't use the right words, I won't get across the meaning I intended, my characters drastically misinterpreted. (I just ran into that with one of my scenes recently. Very glad my crit group pointed it out, so I could fix the issue.) A single misplaced comma can change the meaning of a sentence. Without an understanding of pacing, the story will flounder or become too frantic.
Both are needed for memorable storytelling. Craft conveys the idea, and a story needs the idea to exist. Yin and yang.
Mira says
Ink –
Oh my goodness me. You threatened the T.U.R.T.L.E. power.
Well. What can I say to that other than I can't believe how right you are. Right, right, right. How did you get to be so right? And brilliant? And did I mention, how dapper you look today? Very dapper. And right.
Okay, well that's taken care of. Phew. Those Turtles are scary. So, on a completely different topic, Ink, boy oh boy are you wrong.
Just kidding. I don't know if you're wrong or not. I'm not exactly sure what I think about this topic, although I do think it gives creativity short shrift to just delegate it to having a good idea.
For example, writing humor. I'm not sure you can teach someone to write humor. I don't know. I know, for me, it's either there or it isn't. And humor is all about pacing. It feels like something I can hone and improve, but for the most part, I already know the basics of it – it's inside of me.
Except when it isn't. And when it's not there, it doesn't matter how much craft I may have studied about writing humor or the mechanices of pacing. If it's not there, it's not there.
Or sometimes it's sort of medium-warm there. Like this post. But I can't force it to be more there than it is. No matter how much craft I study.
wgflorin says
OMG…there is so much sh*t out here. I was trying to comment and found myself on someone named Alan Orloff's page. Give me a break. Do we really care if creativity trumps magic?
Anonymous says
Hey, you (wgflorin), get off of my (our) cloud! Don't hang around…etc etc…can't remember the words.
Steve says
A language such as English has many dialects. What we call "correct" grammar and usage is a dialect whose rules are formally documented and which is hegemonic among the educated classes. There are other dialects, which also have rules – but those rules are unndocumented and must be learned through exposure. Often expressions in vulgar or undocumented dialects are more effective at communicating a point then are the formal equivalents.
Double negatives are a really good example of this. They are so prevalent and difficult to stamp out precisely because they are effective.
Which of these conveys the point more effectively. "I have no money". "I ain't got no money.". Formally, the second implies having money, but nobody but a compulsive logician would be mislead as to the intended meaning. And if emphasis is intended, the double negative clearly works better.
The craft of writing is about communicating the story effectively to one's audience. This can involve "following the (formal) rules", following informal rules that break the formal ones, or, at inspired moments, breaking a rule conspicuously and deliberately for purposes of irony.
The important thing in all this is whatever mix of rule-following and rule-breaking you use to form your voice(s) MAKE IT WORK. You can write effectively or ineffectively and this has no necessary correlation with whether the (formal) rules are observed or broken.
-Steve
Anonymous says
I love this thread.
Confession: I am married to a bricklayer. And an intellectual.
So, I asked him: what part of my novel makes it for you? The creativity or craft?
His answer: The story first. The craft almost equally, because he finds my style compelling.
But his personal favorite glue in the story were these wild passionate and moody components that were far and few in between.
Oddly, those components, were the purpose of the story (though I never have told him or another soul outside of the story).
Anonymous says
This may be my favorite thread of al Nathan Branford time.
Thank you.
Anonymous says
With my daughter, I read each Harry Potter novel as each was released.
I grew with the author, learned to love her ability to write as it perfected in each subsequent book.
I did so love her story that I did not diss her stumblings as she grew and also came to appreciate her more as she matured.
I would not have been so rich, if she had not been published before she was considered "perfect."
Ink says
Mira,
I agree… sort of. Ha!
I think your humour is an internal thing. The things you find funny, and the funny things you imagine… but making that humour work for others requires technique and timing. The dramatic pause, the reversal, the ironic tone, the diction… to me that's the craft of making humour work.
The trick, though, is that the creativity and the craft are hugely intertwined. What makes great craft, for instance, might be the ways in which we use it creatively. The application of craft can be as creative as the revelation of story. So where does one end and the other begin?
It's a bit of a moebius strip thing going here.
Ink says
I do find it interesting how differently many people define "craft" here. So many people seem to simply define it is as grammar and spelling! Which seems strange to me.
To me grammar and spelling are not craft, they're tools, the carpenter's hammer and nails. The craft is the wealth of skill and experience the carpenter has developed through years of practice, through years of building things. Craft is how you build something, not the tools you do it with. And creativity is the beautiful design in your head you're trying to recreate.
My best,
Bryan
Anonymous says
I think dangling modifiers are a poor example of knowing how to write, because those are not the fundamentals of knowing the craft of writing. Most people who read attentively and regularly will absorb the basics of grammar and writing craft. You can't express your creativity without that craft. I don't see it as x percent of one and y percent of the other. You need both, and you need to be as good as you can be in both… while at the same time squelching perfectionism, which can kill both.
Ro says
The good news is that one could learn the grammar (iPhone app for grammar?), but creativity is the magic you are blessed with, it defies logic.
A few years back my writing guru said, "even a plumber has to be journeyman first, you think you are so special?"
Without creativity, you are not in the game.
Then, 75% of craft will get you noticed.
Amy says
Undisciplined creativity–how can you break the rules if you don't know them? Picasso was an excellent representational artist, which allowed him to 'invent' new ways of seeing. He found his own way. And that's what we as writers must do.
It's like the people who ask about how often I get inspired to write. Jack London had it: “You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.” You continue to pursue mastery of your tools, and then you let your inner child swing on the swings…and write well from that creative, free place.
And keep the club handy just in case.
Bruce Pollock says
To elaborate on my admittedly facetious 308% comment of a while ago, you need much more than creativity and craft to succeed at this business. To break it down further I'd say:
Creativity 8%
Craft 6%
Great title 5%
High concept 9%
Allusions to Shakespeare 3%
Allusions to Greek tragedy 2%
Allusions to the Brady Bunch 5%
Memorable character names 4%
Celebrity endorsements 7%
Platform 6%
Platform shoes 3%
Great author photo 8%
At least one potentially libelous statement 2%
Thinly veiled lampoons of real people 3%
Searchable phrases 9%
Rooming with Oprah's niece 4%
At least one zombie 5%
Ripping the lid off something or someone 2%
Luck 5%
Persistence 4%
irritated anon says
Forgive me, for this is a mean statement, but sometimes on blogs I find myself trying to suck up as much knowledge as I can and taking in everyone's point of view as if all viewpoints are valid. Then I remember that probably ninety-five percent of the commentors (me included) aren't published. If everyone knows as much as they think they know (me included) they'd more than likely be too busy writing — with both craft and creativity — to comment on this post. Which is what I should be doing, as a matter of fact…
roger sakowski says
I’m a lousy speller and not much better at grammar. Still I love writing. The creative end of writing is the most rewarding to me (at least that much is honest) as a result (here’s where my honesty starts to flag) spelling and grammar play a distant second fiddle. So I’ve tried to reconcile things by redefining “craft”.
Creativity is the act of drawing relationships between real and abstract concepts; art is the act of making these relationships realizable. Craft is the measure of how well art is preformed. That’s loose enough to make me feel comfortable with writing in general.
I have a background in fine arts. There are “best practices” that are applied to visual arts that provide guidance, and most often they do provide a roadmap to artistic expression. On the other hand, the painter can violate some of them to achieve drama between forms. That’s just one example. There are lots of good reasons to toss a “best practice”. But note I had to say “good reasons”. Nuts. I’m back to the humdrum definition of craft. I simply can’t dig myself out of the “best practices” dilemma. If breaking a rule brings its own implications to my work, and I didn’t know I was breaking the rule, I’ve lost control of my own expression. Double nuts.
OK, so I give in, spelling and grammar are as important to writing as controlling paint is to a painter. That’s the part of writing I truly hate.
Karen A. Chase says
Creativity is the ability to take something ordinary and do something quite extraordinary with it. A craftsman builds a unique cabinet with the same wood as any other cabinet maker who makes wooden boxes. Creativity is part of the craft.
Diane Mettler says
I think you have to know the rules before you can break them. Everyone needs a strong foundation.What you build is where the creativity comes in.
Matthew R. Loney says
The idea of "craft" changes when invention becomes the spur kicking the horse's ass.
Abstract artists and hip-hop dancers were able to step completely outside of traditional technical craft to create new methods of expression, which in turn breeds new technique.
Writing is a slow child. Everything takes longer to catch on.
JaneDoe says
I can’t help but picture a tribe sitting around a fire; the medicine man telling a compelling story to the children and then the chief interrupts and says, “Oh wait, back up you used way too many adjectives in that sentence.”
Legalistic people ruin it every time! Enjoy the story people!
Anonymous says
Cormac McCarthy. Need I say more?
Ink says
Anon,
Um, yes? Please say more? Are you suggesting Mr. McCarthy's success is the result of creativity, craft or both?
AM says
Irritated anon,
Everyone's opinion matters to the topic of conversation and to the community.
This blog and others like it create communities of writers who share common interests, goals, and concerns. They provide a place to interact with other writers that many of us do not have elsewhere.
Although I cannot participate every day, I read the blogs almost daily, and I am reminded that I am not alone, and I often learn something new.
I appreciate those who host the blogs, and I appreciate all of the writers and members of the publishing industry who participate.
Just knowing that I am not alone has encouraged me whenever I have asked myself, ‘Am I crazy?’.
Why don’t you hang around with a positive attitude , and you may discover the benefits of this community, too.
SphinxnihpS of Aker-Ruti says
"jjdebenedictis said…
The prose only needs to be competent enough to be invisible to the reader."
Side tangent. When I think of invisible prose, I think of Michael Crichton type prose. But although I can't name any off hand, there are also writers we like also for the style of writing, the clever or pretty phrase or metaphor, etc.
Others said it too. I think grammar is important enough to earn its own category from craft. However, grammar, craft/technique, and creativity all have overlaps, because you cannot have one work without the other. It's like asking. What is more important–lungs or heart? You need them both to live. You need all three of the above to write publishable material.
Jodi
Luisa Perkins says
I don't care how creative a story is. If the writer unintentionally makes grammar or usage errors, I'll fall right out of the magic and have a hard time climbing back in. For me, the tools are an essential part of story construction.
Daniel Allen says
In my mind it's more important for the work to read naturally. We don't always speak in proper English, so why should our writing?
That said, I think it's important for anyone who considers themselves a master of their craft to know its inner-workings. I think of it much like an artist who paints in abstract. Does his child-like creation mean he can't paint a beautiful landscape if he wanted? Probably not. Master your tools first, then draw from them to create the work you envision.
I think you can learn a lot about writing from reading the work of others. You may not know exactly why something doesn't sound right (i.e. dangling modifier), but an avid reader would know that it doesn't sound right.
Gina says
I was asking myself how AGENTS perceive this very thing yesterday, in the course of my virtual query-letter quest.
I came across a winning query which landed the now hugely successful author (who also seems like a very cool, sane and helpful person indeed) the one hotshot UK agent everyone wants over here, on account of his track record of securing six-figure deals for debuts by unknowns.
The very short query contained a dangled participle, and if I noticed this Mr Super-Agent surely did (and I bet the author has too, and has to be doubly commended for displaying the letter in order to be helpful).
Super-Agent with the super-nose loved the story, instantly took the author on after over 30 rejections elsewhere (by grammar purists?), and the book was a bestseller.
I think the craft, its tools and creativity are inseperable, but it was interesting to see that an ultra-successful agent didn´t care about grammar when he saw a great story (which is written just beautifully, incidentally).
Reesha says
Wow. All this interesting discussion. Thanks you guys.
Although now I'm left thinking, "Does it really matter? And if it does, should it?"
Just arm yourself with both to the best of your ability and you'll be ok. Us writers are always about doing the best we possibly can anyway. We'd give our last dollar to help promote our book. Why wouldn't we spend hours perfecting our spag (spelling, punctuation and grammar) and our craft?
Still, my curiosity into the subject was fun by reading the comments. Thanks!
Anonymous says
Sometimes you learn to ski by pushing off the mountain.
(and going real fast or real slow)
It's a ride, man.
Mira says
Ink – I think we're in agreement.
Uh oh. What do we do now?? 🙂
I like the comments here. Cool thread.
Annie Reynolds says
I guess its a matter of taste and preferred style really. I am finding myself thoroughly enjoying the YA novels I have been reading lately. Instead of being weighed down in the literature as a whole they tend to let the story drive them. I have probably just been lucky with the novels I have been reading of late, but is it just a coincidence that the best reads are the ones powered by the story, and don't have me reaching for the dictionary every page?
David Gemmell, while entertaining a gathering, told the story of how his first attempt at getting legend published ended with a letter saying stick to delivering coke. He was a born story teller and his creativity and spark lit the wold for too short a time, thank God he didn't let that rejection letter stop him. Perhaps he was not the master of his craft at that time, but he most certainly continued to learn and in the end he achieved something so manny authors are still striving for; that magic formula when good writing and creativity collide to transport the reader to another land.
lora96 says
More creativity than convention surely, but pleeeaaase, adhere to some form of structure, use verbs, etc. I have nearly suffered skull implosion from some "avant-garde" work I have read.
Jeff says
If you break grammar rules because you don't know them I think it can be a detriment to your writing.
If you break them deliberately for whatever reason I think that's part of the creativity of writing.
Jenny says
The thing with pieces that we term 'creative' is that the authors generally know the rules and are breaking them to make a point, or to make something seem fresh. They do not disregard the rules for creativity's sake. There's a difference between being creative and lazily writing randomness.
Jane Opal says
Know the rules, then decide whether/when to follow them or not for the sake of the story.
Overall, you have to let your voice shine through, whether it follows all of the rules or not – and who can remember all of them anyway?
– Jane Opal
Two Flights Down says
I think the rules are there because it's what's been observed as an effective means of communicating and telling a story.
If you can do that without the rules, then great! You're probably very creative and an exception to the rules that you need to follow rules (there's always an exception).
But…you have to know how to communicate effectively. If dangling modifiers are going to throw off your audience, then you need to know that and avoid them. If not, then, more power to you.
Basically, you can use your creativity to break all the rules–but you need to know what you're doing.
liv says
Hi,
This is really nice article to read and thought how the creativity matters with others.
handy aufladen
michael says
Discipline is much more desirable than inspiration__Hemingway