By now I bet Nathan wishes he’d titled that category something other than ‘Depends’. I’m also Depending. I won’t not read a book because it opens with dialogue. If the book’s good, it’s good. If it’s not, the dialogue is irrelevant anyhow.
Meant to add that, while as writers (and readers) we might not care either way, agents/publishers apparently do have preferences, so it would be wise to bear this in mind when querying.
I think it really depends on what the novel is about. I generally don’t like reading books which start with dialogue because I find the book annoying, but if it is good and it takes readers in and the dialogue is relevant then I’ll love it. I’m not a writer so I am assuming that this is a hard way to write a book.
Mostly it doesn't work – who are these people and why should I care what they're saying? But War & Peace begins with dialogue, so … I voted "it depends." Because it does.
It depends on the story and the author. Just out of curiosity I glanced at the first pages of some of my favorite novels. I found two that started with dialogue and which I remember drawing me in from the start: Ender’s Game by Orson Scott Card which begins with two people discussing the child we’ll later meet as Ender, and Stephen King’s The Stand which begins with a line of dialogue as a man yells at his wife to wake up because they have to get out of the house. I’d say it’s like anything else and can either be done well or can be done badly.
I think that any sort of convention for beginnings can be done well or badly. I’ve always been told to start with action. Drop the reader in the middle of something. If that’s a conversation then that opening line of dialogue should do something to orient the reader immediately to the who, what, where, or why. Or at least make the reader want to know who the heck is speaking and find out more. I find in my own work I rarely start with dialogue. As I write romantic suspense, I often start with either the villain or the finding of a body.
Aww feel better. I voted for ‘depends.’ I believe it was you who said “if it works, it works,” and I honestly think this is right. People should just go with the flow. Everything works itself out.
It’d better be good, which doesn’t necessarily mean lengthy or particularly rich. But like a scream that kicks off a great rock tune, too often it can just be going to the well for lack of a better idea.
“Is it a good idea to start with dialogue?” “What kind of a question is that?” “Well, I’m just wondering. I mean, time and place and those kind of situational details are important.” “Of course they’re important. But so’s voice. Mine, yours, his.” “His? He’s got a say in this?” “Sheesh. Of course. You should close your mouth. Every time you open it, your inner idiot escapes.” “Oh, brilliant. At least I don’t believe someone else is doing my thinking for me.” “It’d be nice if someone did. Now back up and get your elbow off the keyboard, will you?” “Sorry.” “Look. A page and a half of capital h’s.” “And still better than the drivel you pass off as starting dialogue.”
Considering I’ve done it myself, I will say that it depends upon the book in question.
In fact, I wrote an entire novel, whose premise was founded on an opening line of dialogue, that piece being the only thing I had before I started writing.
I said depends. My biggest gripe with dialogue openings is when the book refuses to say who’s talking. That can be done through the dialogue… it doesn’t always need tags. But I’m not going to read for long if the whole start is:
It doesn’t tell me anything about the characters or what’s going on. This is something I’ve seen more in short stories. People think they’re being mysterious, but they’re not. And if I ever write a story like that, feel free to slap me.
As everyone else has said, I hope you get better soon.
Dialogue as a beginning…hm… I suppose it depends. As a writer, I enjoy throwing a reader into a story and having them say “what the hell” and keep reading, but not keeping them clueless for very long. As a reader, I find that far too often, a book will begin with dialogue adn not give me what was going on until the last page…and it ends up being really lame.
And the dialogue has to be interesting. Not “Hi there, Fred, what are you doing here?” or “hey kiddo, how was school?”
No, I need something like “Mr. President, we need you to evacuate immediately.” or even better.
more typically, I like being thrown into the descriptions of action. Like, someone running away or someone hiding from something. But it’s gotta be REALLY good.
I did a quick check of the bookshelf by my desk and found 7 novels that open with dialogue:
BIG RED TEQUILA by Rick Riordan RAMONA AND HER MOTHER by Beverly Cleary NUMBER THE STARS by Lois Lowry THE WIZARD’S MAP by Jane Yolen RULES by Cynthia Lord CHARLOTTE’S WEB by E.B. White TOM SAWYER by Mark Twain
Lowry’s book won a Newbery; Lord’s and White’s are Newbery Honor books; Riordan’s was a best-seller; and Jane Yolen follows this blog.
It seems that dialogue openers work for some novels. My favorite opener is from CHARLOTTE’S WEB:
I think it definitely depends. Good dialogues are great. Writers like Dean Koontz & Eric Jerome Dickey always have great dialogue that just make you read & read. Bad dialogue however – – – well, it should be illegal.
Having dialogue at the beginning of a novel can provide a hook, if that dialogue is interesting enough and not too long. It can be a useful device for bringing the reader into the story, and providing insight into the characters who are having the dialogue. Depending on the type of story (which is important), I like having my interest piqued right away, rather than having to wade through ten pages of narrative. Dialogue brings the characters to life, if they are given enough breath. Then, we can zoom back from that dialogue and take a wide angle look at the setting, etc. The dialogue must be important to have such a prime place in the story. Get well soon, Nathan, your blog is fun to read. (Very informative too)
I voted “Depends.” What I don’t like about a dialogue opening is I can’t visualize it. Such an opening usually gives me no setting clues, whereas a narrative opening often does. But that’s not to say that a dialogue opening can’t work if it’s done well. And really, most novels openings are disorienting to some degree. I have to absorb a fair bit of information before I can get that little movie going in my head.
Never thought it over. Maybe very short to kick off the setup
“We’ll never make it.” “I’m going to die trying.” “Don’t leave me behind.”
Then kick into the set up with out knowing the fourth line. Maybe the determined one ditches the desperate one maybe the desperate one latches ounto a second wind or a little courage.
I think dialogue could be a pretty clever opener if it’s kept short and bitter sweet.
I’m not a fan of generalizations or always/never type statements, so I’m in the “depends” category as well. I generally don’t like books that open with casual dialogue (Hi Sally! How are you today?), and I don’t think I’ve ever started a story with any form of dialogue, but many books have begun with it, and begun well. Overall, though, I tend to prefer non-dialogue openings.
โHow do you expect to get away with it?โ she asked, one blond eybrow arching skeptically.
โIt depends,โ he answered, pushing the dark curls of his unshorn hair from his eyes.
He was leaning over the table, chopping crystals of cocaine carefully and thoroughly with a one edged razor blade.
โItโs easy enough to do if you are willing to sacrifice yourself, but…โ
โBut then you donโt get away with it,โ she concluded.
โThat would seem the case…โ his voice dropped off as he considered the matter.
She eyed him unmercifully, unwilling to give ground.
He ignored her stare, concentrating on reducing the crystals to a fine powder, but she knew what he was thinking.
โWhy donโt you just forget it, live happily ever after?โ
โCanโt.โ
โA matter of honor?โ
โA matter of Honor, capital H.โ
โMen!โ
โI belong to that organization, yes.โ
He took a plastic pen from his pocket and disassembling it, used the hollow tube to siphon the white gleaming powder off the antique walnut table that now bore the marks of his enterprise. He was not normally a user, but he had already been awake for seventy-two hours and he knew it would be at least another ten or twelve before he had a chance for sleep… Be generous, he thought, twelve hours, do or die. The coke might be just the bump his exhausted body needed. Or not. On the other hand, its previous owner certainly didnโt need it anymore. That is to say, the dead body lying at his feet hadnโt objected yet.
How timely! My Non-Fic writing class last night discussed this topic at length…due to my essay that started with dialogue. Arghh. OUr concensus was to NOT do it. The teacher flipped through the Best Essays 2007 and couldn’t find one that started with dialogue in the first ten or so. Oh well. If it can be done well, that I say go for it. I just need to make mine better than it was. The joys of writing and debating! Thanks for the excellent question, Nathan!
Good dialog launches into the middle of the action, people expressing their feelings, thoughts, or problems, which is much better than the weather, the setting, or a catalog of the character’s physical characteristics.
And obviously, “good” dialog, like “good” prose, is better than “bad.”
I also voted depends, because for me, it is the overall story that matters to me. Honestly I can pull through a bad beginning if I think the story in the end is worth it. I’m reading one of those right now, and I sure am glad I kept reading, cause the story is getting good.
Feel better Nathan! I’d bring you some soup…but we all know how showing up at your office works out. ๐
I’ve always heard a novel should never start with dialog, but I’ve never heard why. Probably because unless the author has a firm grasp of craft, that dialogue hangs out there without context.
That said, a skilled author can pull it off, no question.
The first line of a book/article/essay should catch your attention. At least, I was always taught that in school. You only have one chance to make a first impression. The first few lines of a book are pretty important. I think beginning a book with dialogue is fine as long as it catches my attention and actually has something to do with the rest of the book.
“Loathe” is a strong word for the way I feel about books that begin with dialogue. Let’s just say I can’t remember a single well-loved book that began that way. What draws me in most is a lyrical beginning, or failing that, some kind of introduction to the novel’s world. I don’t want to listen to the characters talk until I know something about them.
I went with “depends”. For example, the opening is “My life is total hell!” I’d definitely keep reading to find out why. Now, if the dialogue started with “Don’t you think this dress is cute?” Well, I’d probably put the book back on the shelf at the local bookstore and begin searching for something else.
I’m also one of those who hates total identification of a character in the first paragraph. As in real life, when you first meet someone, you don’t really know that person. Over time, you get to know them. I like to do the same with the characters in a book. Give me some sketchy information in the first few paragraphs, and give me the rest of the info as the book progresses. I know, those comments were semi-off topic . . .
Let’s assume none of us has ever heard of Abraham Lincoln or any of his utterings or writings. Would you stop reading if a book started with the Gettysburg Address?
RED STICK WRITER said… Let’s assume none of us has ever heard of Abraham Lincoln or any of his utterings or writings. Would you stop reading if a book started with the Gettysburg Address?
YES.
Worse than dialog that’s BAD is dialog where the reader has no idea who is speaking or why on earth the reader should care about what’s being spoken.
“I’ve watched through his eyes, I’ve listened through his ears, and I tell you he’s the one.”
“Who is John Galt?”
These are a couple of well read books that begin with dialogue.
I voted (x)depends.
Nevertheless, starting a book with dialogue brings the reader directly into the action, and avoids the often dragged out description of the scene or people that can cause one to become automatically disinterested in continuing the reading the story.
I voted โDependsโ. But my general preference is against a novel opening with dialogue. No matter how minimal, I like to know who, what, where. Otherwise, reading the dialogue can feel like eavesdropping.
If dialogue sets the scene and orients me then it works just fine. If it’s simply used for shock value and a cheap hook that has no real bearing on what follows, I probably won’t read the book.
acpaul says
By now I bet Nathan wishes he’d titled that category something other than ‘Depends’.
I’m also Depending. I won’t not read a book because it opens with dialogue. If the book’s good, it’s good. If it’s not, the dialogue is irrelevant anyhow.
John Quirk says
Meant to add that, while as writers (and readers) we might not care either way, agents/publishers apparently do have preferences, so it would be wise to bear this in mind when querying.
Maris Bosquet says
๐ Gaaa…From Depends to Tucks!
Nathan, have you considered eliminating the “depends” choice in your polls?
Hold on, did I just say “eliminating…?”
(Have I been working too long on that Baby Boar kids’ book?)
ebbye says
I think it really depends on what the novel is about. I generally don’t like reading books which start with dialogue because I find the book annoying, but if it is good and it takes readers in and the dialogue is relevant then I’ll love it. I’m not a writer so I am assuming that this is a hard way to write a book.
Nikki Duncan says
It depends on what’s being said, how long it lasts, and if it’s the best way to introduce the story and or characters.
I’ve started my books both ways. Sometimes the action is the best way to jump in, sometimes dialog.
Feel better.
Anonymous says
Mostly it doesn't work – who are these people and why should I care what they're saying? But War & Peace begins with dialogue, so … I voted "it depends." Because it does.
Marti says
I’m thinking “Depends” on how good the writing and overall story is.
Sending virtual chicken soup and healing thoughts your way, Nathan!
Jessica Burkhart says
It SO depends on the book. Feel better!
Bethanne says
I do love dialogue…and voted for it. Unfortunately, my own wip doesn’t start with dialogue, but I think it’s still doing okay. ๐
Maybe I should have voted for depends….
Thomma Lyn says
Definitely depends. I’m fine with it if the dialogue throws out tasty teasers of story and of intriguing characters.
I’m sorry to hear you’re sick. I hope you’re feeling better soon!
Lynne says
Depends on whether it works. Hope you feel better soon.
dernjg says
Probably should have gone with depends. But when done right, like the opening to Fletch, I love it.
K.S. Clay says
It depends on the story and the author. Just out of curiosity I glanced at the first pages of some of my favorite novels. I found two that started with dialogue and which I remember drawing me in from the start: Ender’s Game by Orson Scott Card which begins with two people discussing the child we’ll later meet as Ender, and Stephen King’s The Stand which begins with a line of dialogue as a man yells at his wife to wake up because they have to get out of the house. I’d say it’s like anything else and can either be done well or can be done badly.
Kait Nolan says
I think that any sort of convention for beginnings can be done well or badly. I’ve always been told to start with action. Drop the reader in the middle of something. If that’s a conversation then that opening line of dialogue should do something to orient the reader immediately to the who, what, where, or why. Or at least make the reader want to know who the heck is speaking and find out more. I find in my own work I rarely start with dialogue. As I write romantic suspense, I often start with either the villain or the finding of a body.
Brian F. says
While I haven’t read all the comments, the overwhelming majority seems to be, “Depends on if it’s done well.”
May I ask: what constitutes opening dialogue that’s done well? Is it like art–you know it when you see it?
I land on the “loathe” side because I so rarely see it done well.
Dave F. says
Well that was a definate choice of “maybe”…
I like dialog.
Susan Helene Gottfried says
Get thee some chicken soup.
Adaora A. says
Aww feel better.
I voted for ‘depends.’ I believe it was you who said “if it works, it works,” and I honestly think this is right. People should just go with the flow. Everything works itself out.
Scott says
It’d better be good, which doesn’t necessarily mean lengthy or particularly rich. But like a scream that kicks off a great rock tune, too often it can just be going to the well for lack of a better idea.
Feel better, man.
Ulysses says
This time, I blame the lateness of the hour EST…
“Is it a good idea to start with dialogue?”
“What kind of a question is that?”
“Well, I’m just wondering. I mean, time and place and those kind of situational details are important.”
“Of course they’re important. But so’s voice. Mine, yours, his.”
“His? He’s got a say in this?”
“Sheesh. Of course. You should close your mouth. Every time you open it, your inner idiot escapes.”
“Oh, brilliant. At least I don’t believe someone else is doing my thinking for me.”
“It’d be nice if someone did. Now back up and get your elbow off the keyboard, will you?”
“Sorry.”
“Look. A page and a half of capital h’s.”
“And still better than the drivel you pass off as starting dialogue.”
Furious D says
Considering I’ve done it myself, I will say that it depends upon the book in question.
In fact, I wrote an entire novel, whose premise was founded on an opening line of dialogue, that piece being the only thing I had before I started writing.
Polenth says
I said depends. My biggest gripe with dialogue openings is when the book refuses to say who’s talking. That can be done through the dialogue… it doesn’t always need tags. But I’m not going to read for long if the whole start is:
“I don’t want to.”
“Why not?”
“Because it’s bad.”
“Well, I disagree.”
It doesn’t tell me anything about the characters or what’s going on. This is something I’ve seen more in short stories. People think they’re being mysterious, but they’re not. And if I ever write a story like that, feel free to slap me.
The Crystal Faerie says
As everyone else has said, I hope you get better soon.
Dialogue as a beginning…hm…
I suppose it depends. As a writer, I enjoy throwing a reader into a story and having them say “what the hell” and keep reading, but not keeping them clueless for very long. As a reader, I find that far too often, a book will begin with dialogue adn not give me what was going on until the last page…and it ends up being really lame.
And the dialogue has to be interesting. Not “Hi there, Fred, what are you doing here?” or “hey kiddo, how was school?”
No, I need something like
“Mr. President, we need you to evacuate immediately.” or even better.
more typically, I like being thrown into the descriptions of action. Like, someone running away or someone hiding from something. But it’s gotta be REALLY good.
I’m a really picky reader.
Jeanie W says
I did a quick check of the bookshelf by my desk and found 7 novels that open with dialogue:
BIG RED TEQUILA by Rick Riordan
RAMONA AND HER MOTHER by Beverly Cleary
NUMBER THE STARS by Lois Lowry
THE WIZARD’S MAP by Jane Yolen
RULES by Cynthia Lord
CHARLOTTE’S WEB by E.B. White
TOM SAWYER by Mark Twain
Lowry’s book won a Newbery; Lord’s and White’s are Newbery Honor books; Riordan’s was a best-seller; and Jane Yolen follows this blog.
It seems that dialogue openers work for some novels. My favorite opener is from CHARLOTTE’S WEB:
“Where’s Papa going with that ax?”
Erik Hedstrom says
Unnervingly I have nothing to say… so I’ll quote someone else…
“There are no laws for the novel. There never have been, nor can there ever be.”
-Doris Lessing
JohnO says
I’ll bet a good writer could pull it off. But if you write visually, you’re having someone speak
– without knowing gender
– without knowing setting
– without knowing who s/he is talking to, etc.
So I think it’s prolly a bad idea.
But Nathan, here’s my You Tell Me: Are you wrestling with someone’s partial who started a book that way?
Vera Ezimora says
I think it definitely depends. Good dialogues are great. Writers like Dean Koontz & Eric Jerome Dickey always have great dialogue that just make you read & read. Bad dialogue however – – – well, it should be illegal.
Vancouver Dame says
Having dialogue at the beginning of a novel can provide a hook, if that dialogue is interesting enough and not too long. It can be a useful device for bringing the reader into the story, and providing insight into the characters who are having the dialogue. Depending on the type of story (which is important), I like having my interest piqued right away, rather than having to wade through ten pages of narrative. Dialogue brings the characters to life, if they are given enough breath. Then, we can zoom back from that dialogue and take a wide angle look at the setting, etc. The dialogue must be important to have such a prime place in the story. Get well soon, Nathan, your blog is fun to read. (Very informative too)
AmyB says
I voted “Depends.” What I don’t like about a dialogue opening is I can’t visualize it. Such an opening usually gives me no setting clues, whereas a narrative opening often does. But that’s not to say that a dialogue opening can’t work if it’s done well. And really, most novels openings are disorienting to some degree. I have to absorb a fair bit of information before I can get that little movie going in my head.
Steppe says
Never thought it over.
Maybe very short to kick off the setup
“We’ll never make it.”
“I’m going to die trying.”
“Don’t leave me behind.”
Then kick into the set up with out knowing
the fourth line. Maybe the determined one ditches the desperate one maybe the desperate one latches ounto a second wind or a little courage.
I think dialogue could be a pretty clever opener if it’s kept short and bitter sweet.
Get well soon.
Kristin Laughtin says
I’m not a fan of generalizations or always/never type statements, so I’m in the “depends” category as well. I generally don’t like books that open with casual dialogue (Hi Sally! How are you today?), and I don’t think I’ve ever started a story with any form of dialogue, but many books have begun with it, and begun well. Overall, though, I tend to prefer non-dialogue openings.
Anonymous says
โHow do you expect to get away with it?โ she asked, one blond eybrow arching skeptically.
โIt depends,โ he answered, pushing the dark curls of his unshorn hair from his eyes.
He was leaning over the table, chopping crystals of cocaine carefully and thoroughly with a one edged razor blade.
โItโs easy enough to do if you are willing to sacrifice yourself, but…โ
โBut then you donโt get away with it,โ she concluded.
โThat would seem the case…โ his voice dropped off as he considered the matter.
She eyed him unmercifully, unwilling to give ground.
He ignored her stare, concentrating on reducing the crystals to a fine powder, but she knew what he was thinking.
โWhy donโt you just forget it, live happily ever after?โ
โCanโt.โ
โA matter of honor?โ
โA matter of Honor, capital H.โ
โMen!โ
โI belong to that organization, yes.โ
He took a plastic pen from his pocket and disassembling it, used the hollow tube to siphon the white gleaming powder off the antique walnut table that now bore the marks of his enterprise. He was not normally a user, but he had already been awake for seventy-two hours and he knew it would be at least another ten or twelve before he had a chance for sleep… Be generous, he thought, twelve hours, do or die. The coke might be just the bump his exhausted body needed. Or not. On the other hand, its previous owner certainly didnโt need it anymore. That is to say, the dead body lying at his feet hadnโt objected yet.
Alphabeter says
Would Fed-Ex’ing you soup count as a reading fee?
(He read this!)
JES says
This seems of a piece with the question, “How do we feel about novels that begin with one-sentence paragraphs?” or “…with a prologue?” etc.
My opinion is “it depends.” The most important piece of a novel is always the next piece.
Vieva says
I like books that jump right in. Sometimes that’s dialogue.
That said, it’s a lot easier to do poorly than well.
Elise says
How timely! My Non-Fic writing class last night discussed this topic at length…due to my essay that started with dialogue. Arghh. OUr concensus was to NOT do it. The teacher flipped through the Best Essays 2007 and couldn’t find one that started with dialogue in the first ten or so. Oh well. If it can be done well, that I say go for it. I just need to make mine better than it was.
The joys of writing and debating!
Thanks for the excellent question, Nathan!
Joseph Lewis says
Love it.
Good dialog launches into the middle of the action, people expressing their feelings, thoughts, or problems, which is much better than the weather, the setting, or a catalog of the character’s physical characteristics.
And obviously, “good” dialog, like “good” prose, is better than “bad.”
Feel better soon!
Ryan Field says
I voted it depends because every now and then you find one that works. But typically I don’t like it. And I probably wouldn’t do it either.
Stacey says
I also voted depends, because for me, it is the overall story that matters to me. Honestly I can pull through a bad beginning if I think the story in the end is worth it. I’m reading one of those right now, and I sure am glad I kept reading, cause the story is getting good.
Feel better Nathan! I’d bring you some soup…but we all know how showing up at your office works out. ๐
Carolyn says
I’ve always heard a novel should never start with dialog, but I’ve never heard why. Probably because unless the author has a firm grasp of craft, that dialogue hangs out there without context.
That said, a skilled author can pull it off, no question.
That’s why it depends — on skill.
RachelB says
The first line of a book/article/essay should catch your attention. At least, I was always taught that in school. You only have one chance to make a first impression. The first few lines of a book are pretty important. I think beginning a book with dialogue is fine as long as it catches my attention and actually has something to do with the rest of the book.
Kate H says
“Loathe” is a strong word for the way I feel about books that begin with dialogue. Let’s just say I can’t remember a single well-loved book that began that way. What draws me in most is a lyrical beginning, or failing that, some kind of introduction to the novel’s world. I don’t want to listen to the characters talk until I know something about them.
Scott says
I went with “depends”. For example, the opening is “My life is total hell!” I’d definitely keep reading to find out why. Now, if the dialogue started with “Don’t you think this dress is cute?” Well, I’d probably put the book back on the shelf at the local bookstore and begin searching for something else.
I’m also one of those who hates total identification of a character in the first paragraph. As in real life, when you first meet someone, you don’t really know that person. Over time, you get to know them. I like to do the same with the characters in a book. Give me some sketchy information in the first few paragraphs, and give me the rest of the info as the book progresses. I know, those comments were semi-off topic . . .
Moth says
Depends. If the dialogue is good it’s fine.
I do hate the “And that’s why I shot my husband.”
Or “Don’t kill me.” etc.
Hook-y, gimmicky stuff that’s not really part of the story.
RED STICK WRITER says
Let’s assume none of us has ever heard of Abraham Lincoln or any of his utterings or writings. Would you stop reading if a book started with the Gettysburg Address?
Eileen Wiedbrauk / Speak Coffee says
RED STICK WRITER said…
Let’s assume none of us has ever heard of Abraham Lincoln or any of his utterings or writings. Would you stop reading if a book started with the Gettysburg Address?
YES.
Worse than dialog that’s BAD is dialog where the reader has no idea who is speaking or why on earth the reader should care about what’s being spoken.
FIRST get me to care, then talk to me.
Rick says
“I’ve watched through his eyes, I’ve listened through his ears, and I tell you he’s the one.”
“Who is John Galt?”
These are a couple of well read books that begin with dialogue.
I voted (x)depends.
Nevertheless, starting a book with dialogue brings the reader directly into the action, and avoids the often dragged out description of the scene or people that can cause one to become automatically disinterested in continuing the reading the story.
Mary says
I voted โDependsโ. But my general preference is against a novel opening with dialogue. No matter how minimal, I like to know who, what, where. Otherwise, reading the dialogue can feel like eavesdropping.
Hope you feel better, soon.
Linnea says
If dialogue sets the scene and orients me then it works just fine. If it’s simply used for shock value and a cheap hook that has no real bearing on what follows, I probably won’t read the book.
Beth says
Mostly I loathe it, because it mostly it’s done badly, which means it’s contextless and therefore meaningless and boring.
I have seen a few rare and striking exceptions, though.