After Monday’s post on the evils ways of impatience, Margaret Yang initiated a discussion in the comments section about the handiness of beta readers — those people who read your rough drafts, give you suggestions, and hopefully provide you with a dash of honesty mixed with a spoon-full of encouragement.
So. Who reads your work before you send it out? Whom do you trust? And perhaps most importantly, how to you know when and when not to take their advice?
Amber says
I have a crit group locally I belong to. We exchange chapters, then when ready, there are a few who will sit and read the whole MS through.
I also have a great friend who devours books, so I like her take on it as strictly a reader.
There are some comments I get that make me feel like slapping myself upside the head ~ how in the world did I miss that?!
Otherwise, it’s one of those things – If I was already considering something, and they bring it up, I make the change.
If it makes sense, I think about it, debate it, sometimes make the change, sometimes not. It all depends.
Elyssa Papa says
My beta readers are my CPs. They usually do a line by line, catching grammatical mistakes that slip my eyes and offer feedback on lines/scenes that need more development, etc.
As to how do I know when not to listen to them… I go with my gut. If something seems off with what they suggest—and I know they mean well—I don’t take it. There are certain things I won’t change, no matter what since I know they do work in the story. But if A, B, and C point it out, I’m taking a second look and seeing how I can make the line work or cut it altogether.
Conduit says
I’ve been incredibly fortunate in having a few very kind beta readers whose opinions I respect and trust. Best of all, they critique in very different ways. One (who is also an editor for a short story zine) mostly focuses on word choice, sentence structure, grammar, all the fine detail. Another seems to follow the ins and outs of plot logic, and A connects to B connects to C. And yet another looks at character and motivation, and what’s inside people’s heads. I couldn’t ask for better, and I owe them more than they can imagine.
The ability to take critique is, to me, a fundamental skill for anyone that wants to write. It’s right up there with being able to string more than two words together in a coherent form, and knowing where to put a full stop. It’s vital, in other words.
Lady Glamis says
I have friends and family read for me, some college lit. friends, and also strangers who don’t know me at all (hence they’re not inclined so sugar-coat their criticism).
This wide group of readers gives me a varied critical view of my work – from every age group and category. Their advice (sometimes silly, sometimes incredible, and sometimes hard to take – but that’s the best kind) has been invaluable.
How do I know what advice to take? I look at what they say, write it down, discuss it with others, think about it, and decide. Pretty simple. You should never feel like you have to please everybody!
However, if a high percentage of my beta readers all make the same suggestion without talking to each other, chances are I’ll make that change without question.
Anonymous says
Literally anybody I know (or even sort of know) who is willing to plow through an unpublished manuscript.
The trickier question is which criticisms to accept and act on. For that, I try to rely on the lunar cycle, my gut and the preponderance of evidence.
LurkerMonkey
Lady Glamis says
Oh, if you’re wondering about the “strangers who don’t know me at all” mentioned above –
I trust them because they are readers who know my trusted readers. I always make sure that anybody who reads my rough drafts can be trusted with my manuscript and ideas.
It would be scary if somebody stole my writing. Anybody ever have that happen to them?
bryan russell says
Actually, I’ve written an article on this subject, as it happens. It’s about the nature of criticism, and the writer’s stance in regards to it, namely that the most important part of a critique is not the critique itself, but rather what you do with it. Hopefully, anyone interested can find the article here:
https://fmwriters.com/Visionback/Vision44/ConfidenceofVision.htm
As for my beta readers, I have two separate avenues. One is family: my mother, who reads and enjoys; my sister and her boyfriend, who read and crit (and, you know, enjoy too); and my wife, who reads and crits (and occasionally is struck with enjoyment as well). My wife is the only one of these who is a writer, so I get some good crits simply from a reader’s perspective. These crits don’t tend to be super in-depth, but I do get some very useful bits here (it helps that I’ve convinced them I’m not too thin-skinned and won’t bite their ankles in spite).
The second avenue I have for readers is through an online critique group. For novels, I’m in a little Novel Club, a private critique group of a dozen fellow writers (of various shapes and sizes, Lit-wise). We take turns putting novels up for critique, one at a time (about a two month period), and I’ve found this very effective so far. It lacks the immediacy of a live group, but it also avoids the distractions and dramas and we seem to maintain a nicely professional focus. For short work, I generally just use a more open critique forum (at Forward Motion for Writers – a great place for writers of all sorts. If you haven’t checked it out before, it might be something worthwhile to take a peek at).
It’s a pretty manageable format, really, and seems a good way to go. At least until you can harass a literary agent into offering feedback. That’s good too.
My best to everyone.
sex scenes at starbucks says
I just did a talk on critique at a writer’s conference this weekend, so obviously I think it’s essential. I have a couple of online betas and a local group. They’re all brilliant and focus on different things. I could never choose advice from just one.
I offered a 30 page crit as my session prize and five differnet people came up to me and said I had the best prize of the entire conference. : )
Susan Helene Gottfried says
I use a mix of readers and writers. And who do I trust? Whoever gives the criticism that sparks ideas and lays out a clear path to make things better.
Meg Wiviott says
I’ve been a stalker on this site for about a month…but this is a topic on which I can contribute something.
I have been in a critique group for more than ten years. We all write for children, but in a variety of genres – picture book, YA, middle grade, chapter books, poetry, etc. We take turns submitting work. We can be brutal, but kind. And ALWAYS supportive.
i don’t know what I would do without my critique group. I have learned what to take from each of them. Some are really good with line edits, others with plot or character.
Like elyssa papa, I use my gut when it comes to listening to them. If I “get” what they are saying and agree with it, then I make changes. If they ALL say the same thing, I know I have to listen even if I don’t “get” it.
Michelle Moran says
My husband. He’s a tough critic!
Anonymous says
In the book Tolkien and Lewis: A Friendship, Tolkien wanted Lewis to ditch the scene when St. Nick shows up in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.
Lewis chose to keep it. Every year I tell my fourth grade class about this decision, and they all side with Lewis. So, sometimes it’s good to go with your gut, even if your partner is Tolkien:)
The Joiners says
Definitely my husband. He has a good eye and an intolerance for ambiguous word choice/sentences. Whenever he starts to edit it, I resist at first, but always wind up liking the end product better – it’s cleaner and more concise.
Heather B. Moore says
I have a critique group, but I’m usually finished writing the book before I can drag each chapter through them. So there are 2 of them who I usually trade manuscripts with. I also have a varied arsenal of readers, depending on the genre, that I’ll send the ms to. I always use 4-5 readers before submitting.
shariwrites says
I have betas of two kinds. First, I have those who I have read just to gague whether they like the story or not. These are usually friends and family and not necessarily very critical. If there are story points they don’t like or that don’t flow or make sense then I make sure to address those.
The second group of betas I have are other writers. I have met all of them online. Honestly, some are better than others. Sometimes all I get is “I loved it, you’re for sure going to get an agent.” But I have a few who are very critical, and it’s great.
As to when I change things based on criticism: When two or three say the same thing, then I really do consider it, and usually end up changing things. However, when only one mentions something and the others don’t, then I really have to decide whether I personally like it better my way, or not. I really look into why they might have made the suggestion and whether it would make the story better. There have definitely been things I’ve changed only becasue one beta reader suggested it.
ML says
Anyone have feedback on paid readers? I’m thinking about using the Litary Consultancy (UK)for feedback on my novel but it’s pricy (£1.50 per page!).
Terra Chandler says
I’m a bookseller, so I have tons of friends who love to read. I can usually get one or two to take time give me a good critique. (They know me well enough to critique me honestly.) And yes….my mum. She is honestly one of my best critics. She is great at letting me know if something “just doesn’t sound right.” She is also a punctuation nut. 🙂
wonderer says
For me, there’s a couple of different stages.
I do a lot of idea-bouncing with my boyfriend (also a writer) when I’m struggling with the big stuff.
I’m part of a local critique group whose members each have different strengths. We’ve been going chapter-by-chapter through several people’s novels. My two WIPs still aren’t ready for that (argh), but they’ll definitely go through this group when the time is right.
At a different stage, I’ll tap the people in my online writing community (who are also the people who keep me writing when the urge to stop is strong). No point in giving it to all my potential beta readers in the same stage.
Finally, I’ll give the polished (I hope) draft to some non-writers for their feedback.
At least, that’s the plan… *trudge, trudge, trudge*
Anonymous says
I have 2 sets. The first just readers, people who like to read. They let me know if I have failed, but have trouble pointing me to where.
Then I have beta readers from an online critique group. These are the best, as writers they can let me know when I have strayed, POV and such, and also as they don’t know me personally they can be brutally honest. I take their advice, by gut only, and when I know its real.
I had a beta reader tell me after my fourth chapter, that my MC shouldn’t be so rough, and shouldn’t say “ain’t”. Fine. I wasn’t worried, becuase, 1)the reader was supposed to feel that way at this point, the secondary character was the reason to read, 2)my hero he is rough, cold, and unforgiven, until…chapter 5, the chapter I wrote to soften my hero. The beta reader loved it. Said he cried, and would cheer for the hero until the end.
The funny thing is, with 2 of my trusted readers, each one has a different reason for reading, which makes me think I pulled the story off. One likes the hero being rough and hacking his way through the world. The other loves the emotional baggage and inner struggles that the hero faces and relationship with the secondary character.
Anonymous says
After waiting probably much too long to put ideas formally on paper (creative writing wise, anyway), I am relying thus far on friends and former colleagues with writing backgrounds…
In my case, this is typically a small group of journalists/former journalists and a few published authors.
My biggest hurdle: Figuring out how to find an agent/get published. I tend to view the process with the same scrutiny I have for those “Earn $80,000 now. Postal Service/Federal Govt. now hiring” ads…
-Tony
nomadshan says
Depends on the work. I have a few online betas who have helped. My most recent book is YA, so I had several teens read it – great feedback. A grammar-freak friend catches mechanical errors. My husband reads everything — he keeps me honest — no pat transitions allowed.
Janet says
My betas are a mixed bag, although pretty much all of them write or have written. One of my sons (the official cheese detector), a NaNo friend, a couple of friends from Absolute Write, a blogging friend, and someone with relevant expertise, whom I also met at AW. My crit group gets it one chapter at a time, but I can’t wait the time it would take for them to get all the way through it.
I’m sending it out in 50 page installments, so as not to overwhelm them, and to make it easier to make changes that might affect the plot.
I respect all of them, so anything they say is considered. If a criticism corresponds to something I was already uneasy about, then I act immediately. If two or three of them are on the same wavelength, I act. But most of the time, they have very different reactions. So I stop and ask myself if changing things to meet their objections would make the work stronger. When they tug in opposite directions, then I realize it’s entirely my personal choice. In that case, I try to think of how the majority of readers would be likely to see it.
And if the proposed changes would take me in directions I don’t want to go, I ignore them.
Wanda B. Ontheshelves says
I’m Beta Poor
It relates to the patience thing – I’m just now getting a copy of my finished novel printed and bound at Kinko’s.
Yeah!
But, it’s like my dad would say when we were little, and he’d just come home from work, trying to have a conversation with my mother, and we’d all be bouncing off the walls: Daddy! Daddy! Daddy!
He’d say, more to himself than us, because we were bouncing off the walls! “Could I have 5 minutes to sit on my ass.”
Uncouth father, what can I say.
But, you know, can I at least have 5 minutes to appreciate the completion of my first novel, and to think of my grandmothers who were frustrated in their educational AND artistic desires – can I have a few moments to savor EX-mayor Kwame Kilpatrick officially out of office – on the same day I pick up a copy of my novel at Kinko’s?
I was talking to my friend the other day, about her detective novel – and it turns out we both have the ’67 riot in our books. She said: “You have that in your novel?” And I said: “Wow, I didn’t know you were including that.” And she talks about 12th Street and Claremont, and I talk about Jefferson near Belle Isle.
Besides, Slacker Uprising is coming to Ann Arbor tomorrow! Can I have one day, one DAY…just to be a slacker? And then get on the finished-novel-beta-reader treadmill. Besides all the other treadmills awaiting me.
Exchange:
“I’ve got more electronic gizmos than you – iphone, blackberry, plasma screen…”
“Yeah, well I’m on more treadmills than you’ll ever be on!”
The Wallace suicide still stings – this kind of thing always activates feelings about other suicides that have touched your life – you’ve got to beat those feelings off with a stick.
Marilyn Peake says
My husband who’s an avid reader, and sometimes other family members who like to read. I also send my published work to reviewers because I value their opinions as important feedback.
Polenth says
My boyfriend is my beta reader (and I’m his). I can measure his advice against his personal preferences, which helps me filter the advice.
I usually take advice about something being confusing or hard to visualise. Other advice is a case by case thing. Whatever I decide, I don’t like to rush into it. I leave the story and critique on one side for a bit. When I come back, I’m in a better position to decide what needs changing.
AJ says
I belong to a local writers group with members from varying ages and backgrounds, and since the majority don’t read (much less write)in my chosen genre (urban fantasy) I rely on them for grammatical and characterization problems.
I also belong to a small online critique group of writers in my genre who look mainly at big picture issues (plot holes, consistency, etc.). And I have two CPs that I use for final polishing.
As far as what I listen to, if more than one tells me the same thing, I’ll at least take a look at it. Often these kind of observations result in those smack-yourself-in-the-forehead moments of “why didn’t I see that?” But at the same time, I find critters, particularly fellow writers, can unconsciously try to rewrite your story as they would do it. They don’t mean to, it’s just something that writers do. In those cases, I thank them for their input, and while I may tweak something here or there, I generally ignore the advice.
I’ve had instances in the past where I’ve allowed too many cooks in the kitchen, so to speak, and edited the life out of something. Every writer has those little things they do that make their work their own [their voice] and they should never allow others to edit that out of their work. I think good editors know this, but often other writers (particularly inexperienced ones) tend to overlook that in the name of being “correct.”
Caleb Mannan says
My wife is is my front line critic and ‘editor'( she is never too kind, but always encouraging). Then my brothers, mother in law, strangers, ect. Though I do feel critique groups are valuable, there is a danger of writing for your audience. I’ve found the best formula is to just get MY vision down on paper( with maybe one or two people as sounding boards), then let others take it to the mats. Some friends, family, and strangers do nicely.
The best rule for me: when there is a reoccurring theme in the criticism, make a change. If everyone believes a character is weak, it probably means the character is weak.
David Mosley says
My best friend, who is quite honest, is one of my readers. He checks for some grammar but mostly flow and continuity. Then another close friend of mine reads the work for content and mostly grammar. I take their advice when it’s grammatical in nature, as in I made a mistake. However, when it comes to content, I know where the story is headed and they don’t so when they make a critique of an unwell explained item, I know not to take it if I plant to explain it later.
Vancouver Dame says
My husband is my Ideal/first Reader especially for the scientific details (he reads physics books), and for the male POV. I have a few online fellow writers, and friends who will give me a readers’ evaluation. I also keep in touch with a couple of published authors, via their websites, who will answer some of my writing questions. I find formal critique groups seem to take up a lot of time and usually produce diverse opinions. I listen to them all and evaluate their suggestions, but I go with my gut instinct nearly every time.
lotusloq says
As I said with Monday’s post my beta readers are mostly my nieces. I go with who I’ve got. I have a plethora of them and they are very educated and lit. savvy. 13 of the 19 nieces are between the ages of 19 and 27 and the interested ones in that group are the ones who read for me.
My mother-in-law has read for me too. I know call me crazy! She was very helpful though. My daughters read too. My 14 year old is the best at fixing grammar and punctuation. Go figure! She’s very anal about it.
Right now my WIP has a few British characters and my daughter’s best friend’s mom is British. She is reading through my ms. to make sure the conversations of the Brits in my story flow and don’t sound American trying to be British.
With her I take what she says. With the nieces and my daughters I go with my gut. If I agree, I change it. If I don’t I still consider strongly what they say, or if a lot of them say the same thing. I really look at that like elyssa papa said.
Cat says
I have a few select friends and occasionally a critique member read my rough draft. I often find that their comments are the things that were bothering me as well and their criticism gives me the impetus to make the changes.
150 says
lotuslog: We call those “Britpickers.” 🙂
Erik says
I usually stand on a street corner looking disheveled, saying, “Read my book, read my boook! Please!” Then I get my first good night’s sleep in about 3 months and ask some friends.
Seriously, I only trust people I know well. They have to be the kind of friends who have no problem telling my my fly is down, there’s a stain on my shirt, or my characterizations are weak.
After that? I throw it to the world. More or less standing on a street corner again. Do yer worst, world, I dares ya!
Just_Me says
My gang at critiquecircle.com
I met people there and now have a solid group of beta readers who have supported me from my first novel, through subsequent new ones, revisions, drafts, bad days, and getting query letters together. They keep me on task. They encourage me to keep writing. They’ve convinced me to submit. And I know they’ll hold my hand through inevitable rejection letters when my faith in my own abilities waver.
Anonymous says
no one.
Vieva says
I have both a friend of mine who’s a strict reader/cheerleader – he loves what I write and really encourages me to keep on going with it. (he needs his fiction!).
Then I have a critique group, and some other friends that crit, to actually go over the fiction for suggestions. I don’t start there, though – I need the confidence boost to keep going first! People who actually critique don’t get it until the first draft is finished.
Sophie says
In the last few weeks I have given my sister the first draft of my novel. She writes herself, is an avid reader and is doing a very thorough job.
If we don’t fall out over this project, she might have the job as my firstline Beta reader long term. She lovingly tells me she enjoys doing it, drastically reducing my guilt.
I’m trying to work out a strategy to select Beta readers for my next drafts. I’m very fortunate; I belong to a small writing group and a book group. I also have friends who have no aspirations to write themselves and yet have listened to me going on about writing at length, so I’m assuming they’ll want to read a near-final version.
Madison says
I am a Beta reader and have just given part of my mss. to someone to critique, but I’m trusting my best friend with my full. I’m the type of person that, if you like it, tell me, if you hate it, tell me. Don’t hold anything back. I want to learn as much as I can and make my work as polished as it can be. This is one reason why I’ve been working on it for over 2 years and have never queried it off.
Laura D says
I must really be old school. I wouldn’t dare disrupt the creative process with such a thing as beta writers unless I was truly collaborating with someone. I still and always have been my best resource. I guess the only thing I trust is my instinct.
Amy Nathan says
I have two categories of beta readers – and only 4 or 5 total. There are the writers and then there are the readers. The writers read and look at things like Show Don’t Tell and character arc. They tell you where you need more conflict – and where they’d like to see more dialog. The readers read like they’ve picked it up off their nightstand, asking about things that don’t resonate or that they don’t understand. They want to know what happens next and remembered what happened before. It’s great if you can get a combo of these in one Beta Reader — but not always easy!!
Kalynne Pudner says
I’m just taking in all these suggestions, with nothing to add — except this: I would only choose one who knew to say, “WHOM do you trust?”
Loren Eaton says
My wife, my aunt and a couple friends. I start making changes when they all notice the same issues independently.
Travis Erwin says
I have a crit group of fellow writers and two avid readers vet my stuff, but ultimately I go with my gut.
Scott says
Like many others here, I’m in a crit group. I also have a former crit group that dissolved a few years back, but I’ll sometimes share chapters with some of the people from that group.
I’ve shared my manuscript with trusted teachers of the age groups the stories were meant for.
For one book that was set largely in a place I’ve never been, I shared key sections (and occasionally the whole thing) with a photographer I found online who has worked extensively in the area (for questions of scenery, light, etc.), somebody from a relevant department of the national museum of that country, an author of a book about a particular subject that was important in two chapters, and a top student recommended to me by a college prof who is much published and well respected in an area that was important to the story but who didn’t have time to do it himself.
LitWitch says
Two regular crit groups, various single crit partners, three friends who love genre and some genre-loving teens (target age group).
Add in an agent and an editor and I know it’s gone through the mill!
What I listen to is when the same stuff keeps coming up again and again, what I ignore are the things that come up once, if at all. Then that’s my own insecurities talking and I tell myself to “Shush!”
Angie says
I don’t use beta readers, and never have.
When I started posting my fiction on the internet, the term “beta reader” hadn’t been invented yet. Quite a few writers had friends who read their stories for them before submission, but it was nowhere near the overwhelming standard it is today.
I’ve been in a couple of good online writing workshops, but nothing really significant in the last fifteen years or so. To me, workshops are a separate thing; even when I was workshopping, I didn’t put everything through the process. The point (for me, anyway) was to improve my specific writing skills and help others improve theirs, not to polish each individual manuscript. And actually, I learned a lot more critiquing others than I did from critiques I got on my own stories. 🙂 I beta for other writers occasionally, but don’t feel a burning need to have anyone do it for me.
I’ve read hundreds of free-on-the-internet stories and most of them have a “Betaed by:” line in the header. Many times I’ve seen the writer give gushing thanks to their beta, or their two or even three betas, then read the actual story and found it riddled with basic mechanical errors. Needless to say, I’m not convinced that absolutely every writer has to have a beta, or that getting one will necessarily improve the quality of one’s fiction.
In my case, I’m working without a net and I know it. The buck starts and stops with me, and it makes me absolutely paranoid about my work. I’ve become very good at going over my own work from a mechanics standpoint, and if I’m having major plot or character or other big-picture problems, I have a couple of friends I’ll bang those around with in e-mail.
I’m sure there are many fantastic betas out there, who are smart and skillful and a huge boon to any writer lucky enough to work with them. But I know for a fact that there are many absolutely sucktastic betas out there too. I don’t feel like sorting through the bin to find someone who’s 1) good enough that it’d be worth it to work with them, and 2) not already up to their eyebrows in beta work — especially since I’ve never had either a reader or an editor complain about the state of my manuscripts.
Angie
Anonymous says
I have three. One of my beta reader’s is a reviewer. Another is a e-pubbed author. The other is a professional proofreader.
I don’t really have a CP though I have been looking for one, it’s hard to find the right fit since I tend to lean towards the more sexy/sensual and erotic in my writings as well as GLBT. And on the flip side I also write YA so finding someone willing to critique both is hard. I’ve tried critique groups but they just don’t seem to be the right fit for me.
I have a degree in english and have had some novellas published and gone through the editing process so I think I do alright on my own. But a second pair of eyes would be great.
Knowing what to accept from what they tell me about a particular chapter or manuscript? I just go with my gut. If we disagree too much, we talk it out, the whys and wherefores and hows of it all.
Anonymous says
My beta reader is a Navy SEAL friend who is also a writer. When he gets done with me I feel like I’ve been through BUD/s training…..beat to pieces, but rock solid.
Brent Festige says
I have this guy (Henry or Hank) who tells me what word mean (like beta) but he’s drunk most the time and I think he makes stuff up. He told me that VOIP is the name of a skin fold in your wenis. I hate Hank so much some times.
Gwen says
Well, what I’d like to know is…
How did all of you find your crit groups? How did you find your beta readers? If your critique group/beta readers are online, did you find them through a google search? An online blogging community, like blogger or livejournal?