After Monday’s post on the evils ways of impatience, Margaret Yang initiated a discussion in the comments section about the handiness of beta readers — those people who read your rough drafts, give you suggestions, and hopefully provide you with a dash of honesty mixed with a spoon-full of encouragement.
So. Who reads your work before you send it out? Whom do you trust? And perhaps most importantly, how to you know when and when not to take their advice?
Cam says
My betas are the LLs. We’re a group of professional writers, columnists, authors, etc… five women who spend at least as much time drinking wine and mojitos together and supporting each other through life’s journeys as we do reading and critiquing each other’s work. The fact that we write in different genres, with some crossover, is helpful in getting a wide perspective on work. I may receive critique or praise on one aspect of a work from one of the LLs that another LL would not even mention.
And of course there’s my husband. The best critic (and the best husband) is an honest one.
Cam
Maureen says
I utilize the women in my book club, neighbors, librarians and friends. They all give me different takes; some as editors, some as readers. I learn a lot from all of them.
LiteraryMouse says
That’s a really good question. My beta readers pretty much consist of my parents, my brother, a friend, and a neighbor who’s working on his own book.
Surprisingly (well, not surprising to me), my parents are the most critical.
How do I know what feedback to listen to and what feedback to ignore? There are a couple of factors:
1. Does more than one reader make note of something? If two or more of my readers say there’s a problem, I pay attention.
2. What is the basis of the critique? Is the reader reflecting his or her biases? Or is their concern more objective?
A couple of examples. My brother hated my story’s prologue. He said the opening was cliched and that most books nowadays don’t have prologues. I did some research and very quickly found out that he was absolutely right. I re-read my prologue and realized it really didn’t add anything new to the story.
I then went to my parents and asked them what they thought of the prologue. They both thought it was well-written, but when I pressed them, conceded that it really wasn’t necessary and hadn’t contributed much to their enjoyment of the story. Out went the prologue.
Another critique I received was that my paragraphs were too short. This from a reader who enjoys writing in long paragraphs. I ignored that criticism, because it was an issue of personal preference and style.
Anonymous says
“how to you know” typo much?
Carley says
Friends, but they all tend to be too generous. My best critique has proven to be my brilliant mother. She’s a veritalbe English/Grammar genius, and doesn’t mince words. A combo that’s perfect. I listen to what she has to say, then go with my gut. Really, there’s nothing like a fresh pair of eyes to look at it. Besides, she’s invaluable, when I think what I’ve written is great, she says, yes that’s better, but…. I value her honesty because it makes her praise that much more vaild.
nancorbett says
I have a friend who’s a children’s librarian. She reads my drafts. I trust her to tell me what she sees as popular trends and whether or not my work seems to fit into things her customers like. I trust her somewhat, but she tends to be too nice.
I also belong two online communities. I workshop my flash fiction on Zoetrope. It doesn’t get any better than that, because there are some wicked good writers on there. So, I can learn by both receiving critiques and reading the work of others. It’s a pretty tight community of writers at all skill levels imaginable.
I also belong to another small online group comprised of about ten writers. This group is the best for novel reads because we are all committed, we all know each other well, and we are brutally honest. They read my novel as I wrote it. I submitted each chapter as it was drafted (kind of a scary thing). I don’t know if I would have finished my first novel if they hadn’t prodded me along. The kept me on track and helped me stay true to the thematic elements and character traits. I also had to keep track of six teen-aged girls at different stages of pregnancy. That was the tough part, remembering who was 6 months along vs. who was 3 and so forth. They helped me do the math.
Jeanie W says
I use relatives. They can be good at finding grammatical errors, places where I’ve drop a word (I do that a lot), or unclear patches. None of them write fiction themselves, but they read a lot of it. I use them mainly to see if the book’s a real page-turner. I don’t want my readers to be able to put it down.
Anonymous Gimp says
I let my wife read first, because it is ALWAYS good to get at least one “I loved it, Mr. Sexy Pants!” before I get the real reviews. The real reviews come from a critique group I joined, called the Wordos. Even though it can be painful sometimes, they are brutally honest and my best tool. Even if they LIKE what someone writes, they STILL tear it apart and show them how it can be better. Brutal honesty is good, but it is great to have my wife to read and cheer me on.
-Josh
Anonymous says
This question is off topic, but I’m curious to your thoughts on this matter.
With the current state on wall street -the Lehman Bros bankruptcy and other financial institutions going under- how will the publishing industry be affected?
Will less deals be made?
Will advances shrink even more?
Maria R.
M. Dunham says
Oh hah. Usually I lurk, but I really wanted to answer this question. I have two good writing groups I belong to – one is a mixture of people who write on the side and professionally, a few editors, etc. My second group is comprised of two writing friends who are extremely tough, nitpicky, and not afraid to tell me when my work “sucks ass.” Since they read the genres I write, it works out well. Each group contributes their own useful critique.
In regards to following advice, there are two rules I follow:
1) If no one can agree on what’s wrong with my work, then it’s ready.
2) No piece is ever truly finished, but abandoned.
Just as important as taking advice is knowing the point of when to step back, and I run off of those stopping points in order to make myself step back.
spinregina says
I choose two to start; a dear friend who is kind but honest, and very well read, and a stranger through the writer’s guild in my provice. (A province is like a state except in Canada, although I know the people reading this site would know that….right?).
JES says
One of the main problems in finding beta readers is how, magically, to bestow time upon them so they can read, effectively, even small chunk(let)s of material. This automatically eliminates a ton of people I know who’d be fantastic beta readers, but simply have no time (what with family, jobs of their own, hobbies, charitable pursuits, and so on).
Which means other writers: folks in the same boat, who can somehow find one another.
Unfortunately, I think I’ve been spoiled.
Sigh…
K says
kay hall said…
I have a writers circle in Manhattan that I attend once a month…otherwise it’s my husband.
Silicon Valley Diva says
Yes, I try to find other writers to critique my work. However, I also try to seek input from readers of the genre that I am currently writing in. I enjoy receiving feedback from these individuals because they are the ones actually purchasing the books.
I’m very open to feedback, especially since I seem to be my own worst critic. Yet sometimes I do listen to my gut.
Rachel says
I have a couple of on-line betas I met at various writers’ conferences. I keep a really open mind to criticism, so the more info they can give me, the better. As for choosing which advice to take…I either go with my gut or pay close attention to a piece of advice that more than one reader gives. If all else fails, I ask my twin because, really, she knows me better than anyone.
Tom Burchfield says
I said this: https://tbdeluxe.blogspot.com/2008/04/shop-talk-5-hack-cut-carve-slice-trim.html
awhile back at my blog.
Kim Haynes says
My first and most important reader is my husband, also a writer. He reads and re-reads as necessary and is willing to spend hours talking with me when a scene just went in a direction I didn’t anticipate or a character won’t behave. He doesn’t hesitate to criticize, but he is perpetually encouraging as well.
I also have three CPs that I work with on an individual swapping manuscript basis. These three women all write mysteries, as I do, so they are helpful for more specific points of technique, etc, that my non-mystery-writing husband wouldn’t notice.
Finally, I give my mostly-together drafts to my mother to read. She provides a “typical reader” perspective.
I struggle with some of my readers’ comments, but I’d rather have them be honest (and make me struggle) than have them say nice things all the time. Ultimately, it boils down to what I want the book to say and who I want the characters to be. If a reader’s suggestion doesn’t fit in with my sense of the characters, I think long and hard before using it.
Marva says
Husband
Critters (exchanging mss)
Target audience readers
Wherever I can find them. Except husband, of course. He knows it’s worth his life not to read and give feedback. He has learned it’s okay to say he doesn’t like something.
Scott says
My girlfriend reads my stuff word by word and is professionally qualified. Others read it when I can get them to, but they give feedback that’s more akin to a book buyer, which are mostly visceral reactions to what I’m doing.
But like angie said, I’ve done a lot of work to be better at doing my own checking. I also need to move at a pace that most betas probably wouldn’t satisfy before I’m onto something else. Not so much due to impatience, but if I’m happy and it reads without blips, I won’t wait.
I also write a lot of my stuff “live” on my website, so I get feedback here and there which is also less editor and more reader. I’ve learned that I need to be careful not to be lead too much by online gulp sizes and keeping chapters too equal in length. On the other hand, I’ve been successful at keeping the act moving and holding their attention.
Another bit of luck I’ve had is being accepted by reputable online reviewers after querying them. And being able to use something good they’ve said to help push your book is a nice bonus!
A Paperback Writer says
I write YA and I teach junior high. I have a ready-made pool of beta readers.
Since I’m an English teacher, I can catch 95% of my own typos, so that’s not an issue. But the kids tell me which parts they like and don’t like, where’s it’s slow, what they want to hear more of, etc.
After that, I try to give it to a few adults who write. On the last book I got one neighbor, one blog reader, and one author (David Cunningham, Scottish YA writer, google him if you like). They really tightened things up, but on the next ms, I’ll still give it to the kids first.
Heidi the Hick says
First, even though “they” say I shouldn’t, I let my husband read it. He’s known me since I was 16, he can be honest with me like nobody else on the planet can be, and he has a finely tuned BS filter. I trust him.
Then I have a few trusted friends –again, not recommended but I break a few rules. One friend is a teacher and catches my grammar, as well as an avid reader. Another is an artistic soul who tells me where it gets her the most.
Then I have a few important writing group partners who are soooo helpful. One group meets weekly, plus three of us who meet when we need encouragement or are stuck. REcently 7 of us met up online and formed our own writing group and I am amazed at how well it’s going. We all write differently, but –I gotta say it –we’re all amazing. We just are. We are able to constructively criticize in order to improve, and build up confidence in each other. It’s been a total joy and a blessing.
I’d never let so many read my work before this past year. It’s great. I highly encourage new writers to find good writers to share critiques with.
Anonymous says
I think good critique is, well, critical, especially when you’re new to the writing game. I have belonged to a number of crit groups over the years. The one I’ve belonged to the longest grew out of a fiction-writing class. It’s a mix of genres, but all writers.
I’ve belonged to a couple of “open” crit groups that accept all comers. That gets to be problematic after a while if there is a lot of turnover. The newbies aren’t much help in improving your work, and require a lot of care and feeding at first.
It’s important to find a group with the same work ethic, e.g. who show up consistently having read the work and are ready to provide specific, constructive critique.
There are some links on my Website with tips for critique groups.
https://www.cindachima.com/Tips/tips.htm
CindaChima says
Did not mean to post anonymously. One day I’ll get the hang of this blogging game.
Cinda Williams Chima
Joseph L. Selby says
I have an online friend that reads an absurd amount of books each month (averages 26/month–some of them quite large). I post a chapter in my journal when its finished and he tells me when I’m sucking.
marye.ulrich says
So Nathan,
The three online groups that were mentioned were: Forward Motion for Writers, Absolute Write, cindachima.com, and zoetrope. Any advice? I have never heard of these and could use a beta reader ASAP.
Thanks. Mary
Juliette Dominguez says
Nathan, great question. I’m in the middle of a YA WIP, first draft. Your Q came at a good time, too, as I was just weakening enough to consider letting someone ‘in the door’ — to paraphrase Stephen King (ON WRITING) — with the first draft, keep the door closed, to protect your voice. With the second/revision, open it.
I’m aiming to keep the door closed, which is the opposite to what I did with my first (adult fiction) novel, where the door was too open… My beta readers (once I have the first draft nailed) will be my brilliant, trusted agent (who happens to be at CB, too) and a couple of writers I really rate. Plus the director at the Writer’s Room in NYC, who’s also a good friend. It’s a perfect beta-mix.
The Crystal Faerie says
Actually, my beta readers change. Being in school, I have the ability to change that up often, so I like to hand some of my stuff to one teacher and three of the top readers in my classes. I also like to pick one or two people who don’t do a whole lot of reading and may be lower in the class ranking than the others so I know I’m not only writing stuff for AP and Honors English students.
And usually, it’s the criticisms (spelling there?) of the people who aren’t in honors classes that I try to take more to heart, especially because they don’t tell me how to write my stories, just ‘There’s something missing’ or ‘I’m not feeling it’. Believe it or not, that helps a lot.
GeekyQuill says
My husband won’t read my stuff. He says he’s waiting for it to be published. But he does help with science and technology. He helped me design a special weapon for one of my characters.
My teenage daughter and 20 yr old niece are the ones I bounce ideas around with since they’re in my audience.
I stopped giving it to my mom because she hates fantasy and any sort of violence and now, after reading it, thinks I’m crazy.
…she may be right.
Beth Terrell says
I have a wonderful critique group–honest, insightful, and encouraging.
They give input on individual chapters until the book is finished. Then a few extremely generous souls read the book as a whole. (I do the same for them.)
Then I have three to four honest and insightful people who are not writers to read the manuscript. I also have a defense attorney, a homicide detective, and a paramedic who read portions of the books, which are mysteries, for accuracy.
Lauren says
My beta reader is a woman I met online. She has similar taste in stories and a sense of humor like mine, though her writing style is a bit different than mine – more flowery. When we disagree, we talk it out until one of us convinces the other, or we find a compromise. Usually the discussion helps clarify why my idea wasn’t coming across well, and I can tweak things to keep the idea but present it better.
Linda says
I have an online crit group. The first year, we provided fine line-edits at the rate of 5-10k words per 2-3 weeks (for 5 novels). It was… intense. Writing and editing bootcamp, possibly better than getting an MFA. As we immersed ourselves in each other’s stories, we started getting into global issues – characterization, story arc, rhetoric, believability. Now we’re at the spit and polish stage, and have read much of everyone’s stories twice. All of us marketing or writing those query letters and synopses in prep.
I have two other writers who I rely on to read at one sitting. They’ve read through my first novel three times. So two very different types of readers, both invaluable. BTW, I’ve only met two of the seven. In some ways, online allows an honesty that face-to-face sometimes mitigates.
I always write the first draft in isolation; and usually a 2nd and 3rd draft go by before I share with others.
If one of my readers notes something and I get slightly panicky, I pay attention tothe comment. I feel in my gut whether the crit is spot on. Often times the comment does NOT result in a major modifcation, but only after I’ve spent considerable time, energy, and angst figuring it out.
Peace, Linda
Twilights New Dawn says
My beta readers are anything from a professor or two to my friends. I tend to opt for a friend who is all about grammar and the likes… one who has no interest in my type of story… one who likes to read anything… and somewhere out of that group of friends at least one has to be blatantly honest.
I normally take to heart all comments from them but if it’s a random comment that is just based on their likes and dislikes I kind of toss it aside. “I don’t like this character” type of stuff, you know.
leesmiley says
I have a few right now. My wife is always available to offer a bit of well-meaning criticism, particularly the small detail things that can’t escape her semi-OCD nature. A couple of friends are very good at giving “big picture” advice concerning the resonance of the story.
My most valuable reader, though, is a lawyer from New York I’ve never met in person. We met through an online fiction site and she’s fantastic. You haven’t revised until you’ve had a lawyer scrub your manuscript until it bleeds.
Adaora A. says
My beta reader is my twin sister. She’s not into writing at all and I know she’d give an honest, readers perspective. She’s my twin but she’s the complete opposite (to me) when it comes to interest in career. She’s done pharmaceutical bio-technology in uni and I’m doing professional writing. I’d then give it to a friend who can give me the gramatical and structure (bearing in mind the plot and story) go-over. I think it’s important to have both those perspectives before you send it out.
George Fripley says
I tend to vary readers. Some of the best advice I have had has come from John Harman, an author who runs workshops over here. I have to admit that it is harder to take criticsm from people too close to me, so I have cultivated on-line relationships instead – and these have been very beneficial.
George Fripley says
I write a bit of satire and I find it crucial to use people who are on that wavelength. I have found in the past that well-meaning readers were not sufficiently tuned-in to the genre and consequently did not provide useful advice.
From a purely grammatical perspective, I have found an editor who will look at articles as long as they are not too long.
piggydiva says
Who my beta readers are depends on what I have written and what I want my beta readers to do for me.
Recently, I gave copies of my unpublished YA book to 5th through 12th grade students complete with a specific questionnaire to fill out. It’s a YA book–kids will tell me if the book is honest or bs. Kids will also tell me what they liked, what was confusing, etc, and I can tweak the book before adults see it.
For adult satirical work that I write, I’ll send it to educated friends (for content) and a couple of my writer friends (for obvious holes, etc).
hyperbard says
I’ve belonged to Critters for about a decade now, and I know a few people there who I read regularly and vice versa. I also work with a few people at Baen’s Bar. Usually, though, I have three beta readers: my bf who’s got a very critical eye, a friend of mine in PA who’s sort of a beta reader/writing buddy, and another friend who lives out in CA.
I like the Critters group because of the diversity — sometimes it’s a bit too diverse I’ll admit. I like the Baen group because it’s teaching me the value of really working at a piece to make yourself stand out in the slush pile. (oddly enough, it’s something that never really sank into my skull with the Critters folk). I like my friend in PA because he can give me a read that is more “writer-to-writer”, while my bf will agonize over spelling, punctuation, whether a phrase has the right sound to him… and my friend in CA gets even more technical with it!
Thomma Lyn says
I have several writer friends, all of whom write in different genres, different styles. Each is a marvelous Beta reader in her unique way. I love getting a wide variety of perspectives on my work.
I appreciate all feedback, but I especially appreciate feedback that makes me think, helps me consider how I can make a good thing better.
And respect is paramount — agreeing to disagree when necessary. Personal attacks or patronization should never be tolerated. Had a horrid experience along those lines last year.
I’m lucky. My Betas are real jewels, and I cherish them.
Other Lisa says
“How I found my Beta Readers.”
Well, there was some huge writing workshop group that solicited me on Yahoo. I am not sure how they harvested my email address. I joined and realized that it was a come-on to get you to sign up for various fee-based groups and newsletters. There were so many people in this group that the conversations were impossible to follow and it felt like a real waste of time.
I posted a query: hey, is anyone here writing novels? Got a few responses. Started a little online group. There were many fits and starts and psychotic behaviors. Eventually sane, talented people found the group, and now we have a really neat little situation. I respect everyone tremendously and love to get their feedback.
I accidentally started a much larger online group of writers, which is more of a community than a critique group, but that has proven to be a tremendous amount of fun, both online and now off, as we meet each other in real life.
I have other friends and relatives who read my stuff, all of whom bring different perspectives to my work. Some of them give me great feedback, others give me the kind of basic support I need to poke my head above the covers and write another day.
Finally there is a newer relationship, my agent, whose insights and enthusiasm have been so helpful that I hardly have the words to express my appreciation.
How do you weigh all of this advice? That’s a tough one. For me, it comes down to going with my gut. Sometimes I won’t agree with the substance of a critique but the fact that readers are having trouble with aspects of the story tells me that I need to pay attention, even if the solutions they offer aren’t necessarily the right ones.
The best critiques are those where you know the reader gets what you are trying to do in a larger sense. They may not have the solution for you, but they know where the problems are, and that alone is incredibly valuable when you’ve read your MS so many times that you don’t even know what it means any more.
Vin says
take my current advice, you misspelled “who do you” with “who to you”
Julie Weathers says
I belong to a small, private writer’s forum and we exchange critiques. Different people have different strengths so that helps greatly.
I’m also finishing Barbara Rogan’s Next Level workshop. The workshop was outstanding and I’ve learned a lot. The students have decided to stay together and continue critiquing each other. We all have radically different books, but the “eye” each one brings really makes the revisions strong and balanced.
Compuserve Books and Writers Forum has an excellent novels workshop if someone doesn’t have a good crit group.
I once asked a lady who is a retired editor if I should cut THOUGH I SHOULD DIE to the bone, like a commenter had suggested. She detested the detail and multiple characters. The editor said, “It’s a wild-eyed, fun-filled, sprawling adventure. Why would you want to change that?”
Another author cautioned me from taking advice that would change the voice of the story and lose the fun.
I think that’s what we need to keep in mind. Find crit partners who know what they are doing. Listen to every piece of advice and then weigh the changes. Does it improve the story? Do the changes keep the story true to the dream?
Barbara suggested I lose my prologue, spice up my mc in the opening and change the ending.
But I love my prologue! It’s beautiful, emotional and action-packed.
I think her being gentle and shy in the beginning suits her. Boring? My mc is boring?
What do you mean I can’t murder my heroine? But it’s so dramatic they way she dies.
Yeah, well the prologue works great in chapter eight with some judicious changes.
Giving her some fire and grit has turned a ho-hum opening into an adventure.
Yeah, ok. I agree, the ending is much better now without the dramatic death scene.
Sometimes changes are really hard to swallow, but if you’re honest, you know in your heart they are for the best.
That’s when you find some lovely chocolates to send to your very patient critters.
Julie Weathers says
For those who don’t have access to crit groups, you might check this out.
Books and Writers
There is a writers workshop for short stories and novel chapters. You trade in so many crits on other work for posting one of your chapters or short stories. No need to spend a lot of money when you pay for it with your own comments.
There is also a fantastic YA and children’s section.
Plus there is a great exercise workshop and research section. Want to know how far a horse can travel in a day? Ask and you’ll find out.
I sincerely believe a strong crit group helps a writer take their work to a much higher level.
Jovanna says
My little sis, cos she also likes to write and she is usually the most honest… and very good at picking up my grammar and spelling mistakes. My mum when the story’s morals agree with her, my other siblings when i just want a general idea.
I usually don’t take criticisms which interfere with my storyline (altho i keep a open mind to their suggestions)… such as someone saying something like ‘why did you do that to that character? that’s so mean! i like that character! you should hav done blah, then that character can…’ and try changing the story into their own story with their own style and their own story line because that’s the only way stories should be written…
but my stories are mostly for my own reading. i hav a hard time finding good books cos no access to a good library or bookshop, and no one i know can refer good books to me anymore… who wants to read manga all the time? so when i want a good read, i read over my own stories… and then get frustrated cos i don’t kno the ending! it’s funny.
Maris Bosquet says
My betas include opinionated co-workers and the neighbor’s kids, who are sick of HP and vampires and are always looking for something different to read. (The opinionated co-workers are just sick of everything, heh-heh…)
Anon says
I’m fortunate enough to have one friend who has an MAW, is a published poet and an english teacher. Another friend who used to work in editing. They get everything. I trust their opinion and their judgment.
If they suggest something that makes sense to me, I go for it. If something seems wrong I always ask for the reasoning behind their thinking. Like one of the gals thought I should remove the prologue from my book. Ultimately, I felt it was a wrong move.
Maris Bosquet says
OH, I forgot to add something! I’ve heard horror stories about online crit groups. Apparently rival writers have been known to fabricate negative criticism or offer criticism designed to ruin a story. Very scary stuff, that. That’s one reason why I avoid crit groups.
Maris Bosquet says
Additionally… (Yes, I’m off to a slow mental start this morning.) If the suggestion makes sense and fits the story, I’ll follow it. And, I always fill holes and correct sentences words or clauses missing. (Sorry for the object lesson!).
But if the suggestion goes against the character or where I mean to take the plot, I’ll let it pass, telling my beta why.
Chatty Kelly says
I have 2. One is a friend of my husband’s who would always tell me the errors in my emails. (Typos and such – a perfectionist I’m not). I came to realize he had a real eye for finding things and asked if he would look over my Christian writing. He called it pseudo Christian pap. Ha! I knew then he was the perfect Beta reader.
The other is a girlfriend who has experience in the journalism field. She is good at getting me to be more concise.
Scott says
With my latest project, I had a complete stranger – well, stranger to me, but he’s an acquaintance of my sister – and two really good friends read the manuscript. The one thing I knew about my friends is that they would not hold back with their criticism – and trust me, they didn’t. The stranger was probably the most help – he didn’t know me, he didn’t care about my feelings, and he was very honest.
I listen closely to their comments, but – like Elyssa – go with my gut on certain things.
Scott