In the comments section of last week’s post about the one question writers should never ask themselves when reading (retroactive spoiler: the question is “do I like this?”), some people took the post to mean that I was essentially saying that if a book is popular it must be well-written, ergo the most popular books are the best written.
Not what I meant!
Now, partly this is a confusion of terms, because are we talking about “writing” as in prose or “writing” as in overall craft or are the books we like the ones that are well-written and the ones we don’t like are the ones that aren’t?? Everyone tends to mean something different when they talk about “the writing.”
But for the most part, and you’ll see below what I mean, I think when people criticize the “writing” they mean the sentence-to-sentence prose, so let’s just go with that definition for now.
And let’s also get one thing clear up front: there absolutely has to be a certain level of writing for a book to work, and I personally think the degree of writing quality in bestselling books is underestimated by many aspiring writers. I host page critiques because smooth and polished prose aids storytelling and in today’s publishing world you need an extremely high degree of craft in order to be published.
But once you’ve reached a certain degree of professional-level writing, the further levels and degrees of writing is not the be all and end all of a book’s success.
What I meant by last week’s post is not that every popular book is written phenomenally well, but a popular book is doing SOMETHING very well, and it’s far more valuable to try to pinpoint what that writer is succeeding at rather than simply dismissing a book as being horribly written just because you don’t like it or just because the prose isn’t top notch.
It might be the suspense, it might be the tension, it might be the pacing, it might be the setting, it might be the characters, or even more likely a combination of several different elements. But if a book is phenomenally popular, something is working that is attracting readers, and no, it’s not just the marketing.
Several people mentioned this part of Stephen King’s (in)famous interview about Stephenie Meyer in the comment section: “The real difference is that Jo Rowling is a terrific writer and Stephenie Meyer can’t write worth a darn. She’s not very good.”
What people don’t seem to remember is this part of the interview:
“People are attracted by the stories, by the pace and in the case of Stephenie Meyer, it’s very clear that she’s writing to a whole generation of girls and opening up kind of a safe joining of love and sex in those books. It’s exciting and it’s thrilling and it’s not particularly threatening because they’re not overtly sexual. A lot of the physical side of it is conveyed in things like the vampire will touch her forearm or run a hand over skin, and she just flushes all hot and cold. And for girls, that’s a shorthand for all the feelings that they’re not ready to deal with yet.”
Whether or not you agree with King’s assessment about Meyer’s writing, at the very least he’s making a distinction between writing and storytelling, or at least what I assume is a distinction between prose craft and storytelling craft, and is acknowledging what he sees as working in Meyer’s books.
Yes, good writing aids storytelling, you need a certain level of writing for a book to work. But just because you don’t care for the prose doesn’t mean there’s nothing that’s working and nothing to be learned.
Do you have any thoughts on the distinction between writing and storytelling? Do you see one as being more important than the other?
T. Anne says
My latest WIP is all story. There is no pretty writing or literary movement occurring within the text, just simply a story moving forward on its own volition. It's a different experience for me as a writer.
Locusts and Wild Honey says
Yeah, I would actually say storytelling is more important–otherwise you're just wasting the reader's time.
However I love good writing and vastly prefer books that have both good writing and good storytelling.
And that's fascinating about the now-infamous Stephen King interview. I had no idea that he said some kind things about TWILIGHT too.
Maya says
Thank you, Nathan! I can't tell you how sick I am of hearing about how Meyer's writing is no good. The fact that Twilight is a mega blockbuster novel has put undue scrutiny on the prose, when in fact it is on the same level as many YA and genre books. Twilight's a hit because the STORY is a hit, the CHARACTERS are a hit, and because teenage girls (the target audience!) like them. I wish wannabe YA writers would please get over themselves when they complain about Twilight. Their blatant jealousy is embarrassing.
Kathleen Foucart says
Great post! I've always cared more about the story than the style– though sometimes a style can draw me into a story I might otherwise not have read. But in general, if the story isn't entertaining me, no amount of "fantastic writing" is going to make me like it.
Kristan says
I'm glad you reposted some more of that infamous interview, because I remember how outraged I was that an oft-derided popular author such as King would then turn around and do the same thing to Meyer. But then when I read the whole thing, and not just the ONE LINE that every decided to fixate on, I realized he was actually giving Meyer plenty of compliments, in addition to recognizing one of her shortcomings.
Anyway, I think it's VERY important to distinguish between writing and storytelling, perhaps because I myself DIDN'T for a long time, and I thought I was a great writer. Well, okay, I was. But I sucked at storytelling. So I've spent the past year and a half focusing on that, and the change is astounding.
Ideally, authors should be excellent at both, and that's absolutely *my* goal.
But realistically? I do think storytelling takes precedence over writing, by a little bit. And I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that. Kind of like how most moviegoers want to see Hollywood blockbusters instead of Cannes indie films. {shrug} There's room in this world for both.
Kristan says
Ah yes, and ditto what Maya and Kathleen said!
Craven says
People are fans of storytelling. Great prose and good storytelling makes magic.
Great prose and poor storytelling results in a poor read.
A Rose by any other name... says
The story is what keeps me turning pages. Top-of-the-line writing is a fringe benefit that comes along once in a great while.
rose
Frank says
Finding the balance between storytelling and writing is essential. If you only focus on the writing then you lose the reader, but if you only focus on the storytelling then you lose the chance to have a larger audience and bore the one you already have.
Writing will get people reading, but storytelling will keep them reading to the end.
Bryan Russell (Ink) says
I waffle a bit when it comes to writing and storytelling. I mean, you need a certain amount of pure writing ability or the story doesn't matter, because it will never come across to the reader. But you need to be able to tell a story, too, otherwise what's the point? But to really make the most of your story some vivid and beautiful writing doesn't hurt…
So, you know, while I like chickens better than eggs, they both have their uses and hopefully after a nice dinner of roasted chicken, dessert will include some sort of fine pastry (or cake, mmmmmmm… cake) making use of fresh eggs.
just one foot says
These are especially important points when it comes to memoir, which I like to read and am trying to write. One holds hands with the other, to make a good memoir, I think. I can have an intriguing story but need to be a good writer to tell it well.
Thanks for the discussion, Nathan.
judy
Karen Carr says
Stephen King said something similar about James Patterson, that he doesn't 'respect his books because everyone's the same…he's a terrible writer' Patterson responded that he is a good story teller and that millions of people agree with him.
I think King's a good story teller, but he's not the best writer either. I'm reading The Stand now and there's lots of cliches and adverbs, so who is to say who writes well except your fans.
A.L. says
I think writing is what will get you into a book. If the person has enough skill with the prose that you can read the first few pages and actually consume the hook it has done its job.
The Storytelling is what grabs you by the head and lets you know that you're not going anywhere until it is done with you.
I'm glad to see someone (with credibility to boot) addressed what Meyers did right. I've never read Twilight, and I've seen tons of bad things about it. I've had bad experiences with Twilight fans that put me off it. But she has to be doing /something/ to have so many people so ensnared.
It's not that 50 million people can't be wrong. It's that 50 million people don't line up if they're not getting a show out of it.
ARJules says
Of course, the story, characters, etc. are the most important. You can write the most beautiful and eloquent prose, but if there's no story there? What's the point?
On the other hand, I find that if the story is good, but it isn't written well, the book won't be a favorite of mine and I will never want to re-read it again. For example, the Twilight series. Yes, the story strikes a chord for a lot of people. And it is my hope that if they were not previously avid readers, their foray into Twilight will inspire them to read more.
However, like I said before, I liked Meyer's books for what they were. That being said, I will never read them again. They certainly aren't my favorites. It is no way a jealousy issue. I just don't prefer her writing.
Back to my day job. *sigh*
ink_spot says
About ten years ago, I had finished a manuscript for a novel I had high ambitions for. I have a decent vocabulary (in my native language, which is not English as you may notice) and thought I'd done well with twisting words, experimenting with ambiguity etc.
From one of the publishers I sent the manuscript to I got a reply that at first was one of the toughest setbacks to date but which since has become one of the most important letters I've received.
They said, "look, you don't have the literary qualities to experiment with language, but you have a really great story going here. Simplify and focus on telling that story".
I wanted to have those qualities so badly because I'd grown up reading classical literature. So at first I was disappointed, to say the least. But as time passed and I read my earlier texts with some distance, I saw exactly what they meant.
Ten years on, it comes naturally to me to choose the simpler way in wording, leaving me with much more energy to put into what I'm actually good at. And it's turned out very well for me.
I think realising what one's strengths and weaknessess are is one of the more important parts of evolving one's writing.
Delia says
Thank you for posting the whole Stephen King statement! He got raked over the coals for what was a thoughtful, articulate, knowledgeable statement. Instead of listening to it and learning from it, people derided him for it. It's nice that someone acknowledged it.
Jaimie says
Nathan. Ugh.
This was so, so encouraging to read. Because some days, and especially today, I get hung up on my sentences. Thank you for the reminder that the sentences aren't what really resonate.
Stu Pitt says
Good distinctions. I'd make one more. I consider King and his ilk entertainers. Thinking of them as writers, as being part of the same profession as Jane Smiley and JM Coetzee, hurts my brain.
King's a good storyteller. Everyone describes his books by the story; car turns into the devil, Jack Torrance goes nuts in a hotel, Carrie has a bad prom, doofus escapes from prison. Good entertainment, that.
The best entertainment + prose novel I've read is John Le Carre's TINKER TAILOR SOLDIER SPY. First rate story, and prose that makes you think.
swampfox says
Great writing needs a great story. The reverse is not true.
Terees/Arleas says
I would say story is more important because people's tastes vary immensely, but certain elements of any story can resonate deep within the reader. Personally, I'm very picky about which writer's styles I like. For example, Tolkien's stories rock (LOTR series) but he goes into so much detail I find him painful to read. That said, I have come to appreciate audio CD's to enjoy many more stories than I would just by reading.
J.D. Deshaw says
Storytelling is always going to be at its best when the writing is fantastic–and vice versa. Why are books like The Bluest Eye, The Sun Also Rises, or The Heart of Darkness considered so ideal? It's because the authors mastered both crafts and their execution was flawless.
Anonymous says
Storytelling is the most important part. But poor writing can get in the way. The difference between storytelling and writing is similar to an artist who is technically good versus one who is passionate. A comedian tells so-so stories with excellent timing will seem funnier than one who tells excellent stories with poor timing.
Livia says
I write because I like storytelling and have very little natural inclination to experiment with words. Now that I'm writing more seriously, I do enjoy trying to improve my craft, although I dont' think my prose will ever be beautiful the way some literary works are. I do wonder, as a YA writer though, whether my main audience would even notice if my craft improved.
Jeni Decker says
I think ink_spot hit the nail on the head, essentially.
Simplified. The Twilight Series, the Sookie Stackhouse series, Evanovich—these books are simple and the commercial masses tend to buy simple.
There's nothing wrong with simple, you know what you've got going in and if the characters and story entertain, the author has done their job.
Beautifully written prose coupled with great storytelling and fantastic characters is harder to come by, though. If the storytelling challenges a reader or requires anything of them, it doesn't tend to be as commercially marketable. There are, of course exceptions…
But some books are like reality tv–you just can't look away.
They've hooked you. And that's great.
Hopefully, though, we're all reading various kinds of works, the easy and the challenging and everything in between. 😉
Kate Larkindale says
I love beautiful writing, but so often a beautifully written story or book gets so wrapped up in the language and the way the story is being told, the story is kind of forgotten. Whenever I discover a book that is both beautifully written and a compelling story, it goes right to the top shelf!
MJR says
I need both good writing and a good story–equally. The novel might have a compelling premise but if the plot loses tension in the middle, I put it down. I picked up a novel I thought I'd love the other day–sounded like a good story, but I couldn't get past pg 5 because the writing was blah.
Anonymous says
Thank you for expanding on the idea you put forth last week ie., successful books do something phenomenally well. I was very curious about that statement and you've answered it.
I had to reread this post a couple times. Though I know the difference between writing & storytelling, the way you're discussing the difference is, I think, more performative (how-to, craft.) But your observations, esp. the references to Meyer & King, spotlight generally known examples of these issues.
I write /say this because I started John Updike's "Brazil" late last night and fought to stay awake because it was so good. I tend to think of Updike as a dead (well, he is) white guy (he was) who has nothing to say and writes from such extreme privelege, I would NEVER like his work. Then, I bought Brazil (for a buck at a garage sale) and WHOA! He's amazing! His sentences are complex, the story is sexy (and yes, horribly racist), and he's totally post-modern, using Tristian an Isolde (another seemingly irrelevant work by an straight, dead, German white guy … not!) to really amazing ends. Good writing & story telling, no vampires.
And, I just finished reading a Jezebel piece comparing Elizabeth Gilbert with Elisabeth / Girl With Tattoo. The comments were interesting because they pointed out how horrible the writing is, possibly a bad translation, but the latter book resonates because it fulfills a sort of revenge female revenge fantasy (whereas Gilbert fulfills another fantasy, ying to yang or yang to ying, I forget.) I haven't read GWT but have read Eat/Pray/Love and, with your storytelling vs. writing dialectic in mind, you're correct: I didn't care for the writing (lazy, self-indulgent, irritating in so many ways) but was eventually coopted by the story-telling because she stuck to the story she promised to tell and … well, I liked where she ended up.
This is an excellent topic, I think, because it casts an all things being equal vibe on books: "literature," crime/thrillers, and New Ageish pabulum must SERVE THE READER. But while we're all readers, we have vastly different tastes.
– Tomas
February Grace says
There are many writers in the world- but not so many truly compelling storytellers.
Storytellers are artists, painting with words.
A storyteller is what I yearn to be: that's what I am personally working toward.
Yes, of course there has to be a certain degree of proficiency in the mechanics of 'the writing' or a book is doomed to fall flat. If you can't put a grammatically correct sentence together obviously you can't tell a cohesive story- a lack of basic skills will suck the life out of your book quicker than a Hoover on shag carpeting.
I think though that a basic proficiency in writing itself is the bare bones of what is needed to really win reader's hearts. It's the mannequin waiting to be clothed. You want a mannequin to display your designer dress on, but without the dress, wig, and all the accoutrements, the mannequin will never be mistaken for an actual human being let alone a Brazilian supermodel.
In other words: it's my view that storytelling trumps all.
Pretty words really do make better books.
~bru
ryan field says
I like to see a perfect balance…Anne Tyler's books. (Though, I've even seen readers on goodreads knock her with one star, which makes no sense at all)
But it doesn't always work that way, and more often than not one or the other suffers. In this case, I think it all depends on how much a reader can tolerate and what they are looking to get out of a book. Most mainstream readers are looking for entertainment and a certain amount of escapism in fiction, and if the storyline isn't powerful they aren't going to rave about the book no matter how well it's written.
Kathryn Packer Roberts says
I agree with Delia, and for that matter, Stephen King. Twilight is a good example of what to do (as far as hooking a reader) but also an example of what not to do (not so good prose).
It should be crystal clear what you said before and it definately is now. We need to focus on ALL elements of a story to make it work.
G.Skinner says
It's kind of like two sides of a coin. If it's sharp and well polished, it doesn't matter which side of the coin catches your attention, you will still bend over to pick it up. But if one side or the other is worn, faded and lack luster. you will likely pass it by.
Summer says
Story telling and the actual writing is very different. I know an author whom I have critiqued and hes an amazing story teller, always manage great comedy in his stories by mouth, and guess what it flows right into paper for him as well, but hes not very good grammatically. So he needs someone to edit because of this, however despite his actual grammatic flaws his big gets rave reviews.
wry wryter says
I think some writers, not all but many, sit on some pretty high horses.
If you are out to write the great American novel, get over yourself.
The unsuccessful writer who deems himself more qualified then the prosperous author is a fool.(I made that up.)
Look, you can stand at the grill and flip burgers all day and get nowhere or at least make a living. Flip them well, add some spices, condiments, open the bar, and people flock to your restaurant. Can you be successful without the good-stuff, sure, add the good stuff and they are breaking down your door.
What does flipping burgers have to do with writing, not a damn thing.
BUT write about the summer you flipped burgers and got laid by the bosses wife, who happened to be the head of the English department at your local high school and IF during her whispers of sweet nothings you studied her 'sintax', you have got yourself one hell of a story AND you'll know how to tell it well.
So,Nathan you want that rare, medium or well done?
Katt says
A well told story can keep me in a badly written book. Good writing with no story? Toss it.
In the fast and furious world we live in, I read for entertainment, not deep meaning. Thats just me. I'd rather stare at a sunset than a painting, rather savour a sweet strawberry than a fish egg.
Latoya Alloway says
There is definitely a difference between storytelling and writing. However it is rare for an author to exhibit both in one novel. Harry Potter encompasses both. Twilight does not. Both should be respected though because millions of people read both. I think a great story with great writing sells book. A great story with okay writing sells books but great writing without a good story will never sell books–unless you write poetry. That is hard for writers to accept but it is true. I know because I am an aspiring writer and my biggest challenge is not in writing prose but in writing a good story that people want to read.
Anatole says
I believe that you have to have a good mix of both — as Meyer's books do. The telling of the story is vastly important, but if you don't "write" at least decently, it won't matter how good you are in other areas.
Rick Daley says
Writing and stories, it's a two-fer Tuesday.
The writing and the story have to work together. The writing needs to be sufficient to speak to the story's audience. In the cases of Twilight and Harry Potter, it was.
In those cases the writing might not hold up to high-minded literary standards, but it doesn't need to, so it didn't fail on any level.
Eric W. Trant says
All that matters in ~writing~ is that you say what you mean to say such that people can understand what the heck you're trying to say.
~Be clear.~
That's all there is in the world to writing. I don't know why there are so many other sentences on the subject.
Storytelling, though, that's the greasy little pig that's so hard to catch. Nailing that sucker down is the art part that's so enviable in successful writers.
Story story story… that's all that matters. Give the reader a clear picture and a great story.
– Eric
Bane of Anubis says
Writing can be learned, storytelling, not so much, methinks. Unfortunately, I am no natural yarn spinner, so the construct and rhythm of a good story are harder for me to find in my own writing… and I think this is the case for many people, which is likely one reason why agents see similarities to trends… because it's easier to mimic preset storytelling of someone else who is likely more of a natural storyteller.
re: SM — I think she's neither, but guess what, she wasn't writing for readers like me. And I think that's the most critical thing that aspiring authors too often forget (at least I know I do): target audience.
We're not writing for other authors, we're writing for run-of-the-mill Janes/Joes who don't give two hoots about adverbs (look at David Eddings), showing versus telling, etc… they just want a good story.
Figure out how to write to an audience (good storytellers know this intrinsically, I think), and you're closer to golden than many who have voice, good craft, etc… which are just gravy.
Nice post, Nathan.
CB ICE says
Great post! I liken this to one of my favorite movies, The Brothers McMullen, by Indie filmmaker, Ed Burns. I'm sure many of you have heard of it, but did you know about all the technical issues. He cut together different type of film (whatever he could get his hands on,) his actors sometimes had different clothes on in the same scene because it was shot at different times–sometimes months later. Also, some hairstyle were different in the same scenes and obviously the whole movie. But the story rose above all that. I must have watched it 20 times and never noticed any of that. He had just enough knowledge of the how to to go along with his wonderful storytelling to get noticed and produced! A good combo. is necessary. Or maybe balance is a better word choice. I'm learning that now as I have my manuscript edited by an author. I love the whole process of writing. getting the story on paper, then moving things around and changing words. No matter what, I think it has to be in your soul, writing and storytelling–okay–back to it!
Aimee says
This is such a true post, but kind of discouraging for me. I feel like my storytelling is not very intriguing and my plot lines and pacing usually fall flat or get lost. However, my writing is great, if I do say so myself. I love experimenting with language and learning new ways to tell a story. I have the "how" part down pact, but the "what" is usually what throws me off.
Anonymous says
Story, story, story.
Story elements sewn together is great writing. Great writing tells the reader something about their own life. That's the draw to story.
Story, story, story.
wry wryter says
Eric 5:15
Porcine humor…you nailed it.
I've been chancing that greasy little pig for so long that my little piggy has become an overgrown sow; time to trim the fat.
Jeez guys, I love this blog.
Laurel says
Story trumps all. Bad writing- really bad- can be so distracting that it pulls you out of the story. Adequate or better and a good story will carry you on its momentum.
Otherwise, how do classics survive? Or STORIES that get translated into multiple languages and sell just as well? Something always gets lost in the translation, whether it's the evolution of language (The Pearl Poet or Chaucer's Middle English converted to modern) or the conversion of the language (Isabel Allende, Gabriel Garcia Marquez). The universal part is the story. It has to transcend current cultural sensibilities, like the arbitrary elimination of all adverbs.
Something in the story has to resonate with the human condition and keep our interest. Otherwise we are just reading really long strings of pretty words, like all dessert with no main course.
jan says
I think storytelling is the have that is essential to a story being popular. But I think you have to have the back-up of craftsmanship for a book to become classic and live on.
Also, I think it's GOOD for writers to look at books critically — look for why a book works and why it doesn't. And I get so very tired of having any accknowledgement that something isn't really very well written be branded with "JEALOSY."
Honestly, I saw folks saying Stephen King was jealous because he dared to say Meyer's craft isn't really very good. Jealous! Good Lord have mercy.
D.G. Hudson says
Writing is something we can all do, with varying levels of expertise. Writing craft can be learned, but style cannot. Some genres are more forgiving of the writing, the audience just wants the romance, the suspense, or something to identify with (as in YA or MG)
Storytelling is a gift that some are born with, and others struggle to find. If the story is compelling, we don't really care about the mistakes or poor writing. We're swept up into the tale.
I'd have to say the storytelling is more important. No matter how well written a book may be and regardless of whether it's mainstream or literary, it's the story that keeps me reading.
Jabez says
A couple points. First, I've seen scores of people on blogs and otherwise say words to the effect of, "I'm not the best writer in the world, but I'm a good storyteller," but barely a handful who have ever admitted to being a better prose stylist than a storyteller. But being good at either one is really hard and rare.
I think the reason for the disparity, mostly, is that it's easier to delude yourself into thinking you're a better storyteller than you are, because you can grasp the quality (or not) of the prose in a short excerpt, but to evaluate storytelling you have to look at the work as a whole, which is harder to wrap your mind around. Plus we usually get into the writing game because we have stories to tell, and we don't want to think that on that basic level, we just don't have it. And people confuse storytelling, which involves a lot of different elements (choice of details, pacing, tension, characterization, plotting, setting, etc.) with just the basic idea of the story (which they think theirs is original and compelling, or they wouldn't be writing it) or with just plot at a high level of remove.
And my second point, which is I think too many people confuse "writing" as "writing in a literary fashion." I think a great "writer" is a writer who can best craft her prose to serve the particular story she's trying to tell, whether that is literary, fantasy, mystery, romance, or what not. But because people tend to equate fancy or elaborate (which may happen to be great) with great prose, lots of people who don't write in a literary style instantly discount themselves and similar writers as mainly "storytellers" and not great "writers."
Susan Schaefer Bojilov says
What draws me to a book is the voice of the author.
Susan Schaefer Bojilov says
I am drawn to a novel by the voice of the auther
susan Schaefer Bojilov says
One more time. I am drawn to a book by the voice of the author. I wish I could spell correctly the first time.