Lots of links again, so let’s get started! Also, thanks to the Hastings Entertainment Law class for hosting me this morning, you guys asked some really smart questions about the business. But then: you’re law students. Of course you people are smart.
First up: Blog reader plugs! Reader Scott Rhoades has an article called “Great Writing Software That Won’t Coast a Dime” in the May issue of The Writer magazine, which is in stores now. Mira started a blog called Come In Character, in which she offers prompts and writers respond in their characters’ voices, which is undoubtedly a fun exercise. And longtime friend of the blog Ray Rhamey is turning his popular blog Flogging the Quill into a book version, so check that out as well.
This week’s agentfail post at Bookends continues to spark reactions around the blogosphere. Victoria Strauss responds here and Jonathan Lyons here. Both, like me, are surprised at the venom. Only kind of unsurprised too. UPDATE: Jennifer Jackson weighs in here.
And to further respond to yesterday’s post, I understand that agents sometimes fall down at the job and do some things that frustrate and irritate authors. We’re human. But don’t forget that: we’re human. We’re not horrible weeds in the publishing garden. We love our clients, books, and the publishing industry, or else we wouldn’t be here.
Speaking of positivity, Bookends also started an Authorpass and Agentpass appreciation thread. Feel the love!
Thanks to Colleen Lindsay for sending along this hilarious publishing glossary. Sample entry: AUTHOR TOUR: A hazing ritual intended to make authors compliant to their publishers.
In actual book glossary news, Book Roast’s own anonymous publisher breaks down terms like launch and sales conference and discusses how publishers go about allocating marketing resources. An absolute must read if you’re curious about how that process works.
Influential blogger Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo recently bought a Kindle, liked it a lot, and then immediately began considering the potentially scary repercussions and the disappearance of paper books. A really nice summary of both the advantages of e-books paired with consciousness of their perils.
Remember how Klazart/Vineet sent Authonomaniacs into freakout mode when he (legally) brought some of his gamer friends to the site to back his novel? Lauri Shaw has an interview with the man himself.
Via Moonrat comes word that the late Robert Jordan’s last book will be released in three volumes. This is big news to everyone who has read all 7,078,253,278,234 words of the series thus far.
Rachelle Gardner has a fabulous post on 10 things an author should expect out of their agent. Really a great list.
My client Jennifer Hubbard has another great writing post this week about what makes a book un-put-downable (and she should know, her upcoming novel THE SECRET YEAR absolutely falls into that category). She attributes it to a combination of a question to be solved and a compelling voice.
Reader Neil Vogler pointed me to an article that contemplates an interesting new avenue for writing: literary video games?
And finally, friend-of-the-blog Tanya Egan Gibson has a new book coming out called HOW TO BUY A LOVE OF READING, and she recently produced a really cool book trailer:
Have a great weekend!
Chris Bates says
Something to lighten the mood:
How many agents does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A1: Sorry, we’re not screwing in any new light bulbs anymore. But have you considered turning your light bulb into maybe… a candle?
A2: Oh yes, I screwed in your light bulb, but I haven’t had a chance to turn it on yet. I’ll get to it as soon as possible. It’s just that we’re already sitting under too much light.
A3: Loved your light bulb. Great light. Lots of illumination. Unfortunately, the agency’s decided to remain in the dark indefinitely.
Anonymous says
Chris,
I pick number 3.
Nathan,
Cussing isn’t scary to me. Have you been in a highschool or worked out in the public? Yes that person was angry, but that was one (and yes I know there are others) out of 275. I saw just as many angry people on your website just after queryfail. And I did read all of them up until and hour ago. Those Anons do not share the same rationalizing because they use the same name.
Marie
Anonymous says
Oops,
Sorry Chris. I gave Wickerman all of the credit for the stuff I agreed with. You hit the nail on the head also.
Marie
Bane of Anubis says
Marie, the internet can be cathartic, but it can equally fuel the rage… Anonymous cussing doesn’t bother me, either, but the feeling behind it does. There’s ANGER there that can become destructive (self or other)… and then there’s the part of me that says… you know what, if you can’t take the heat, stay out of the kitchen…
Rejection’s hard. Impersonal rejection makes it more difficult. Sure, an agent just blew off your masterpiece and query that you spend two hours crafting in less time than it takes to sneeze – guess what, it’s not a masterpiece and your writing might not be good – at least not to that agent. Don’t stew… just move on. Yeah, they’re are asshole agents, just as there are asshole authors (and author wannabes)… the world’s a large place, filled with lots of people, and none of us are as special as we’d like to think we are – but some have power and if we want to stay in the game, it would behoove us to adhere to the rules and stay on the level. Or if you want to take your ball and start a new game, go for it and good luck to you.
Anonymous says
Maybe another positivity week is in order?
I’m sorry that the frustration/anger of the agentfail comments has disappointed/frightened/discouraged you.
I think the world is just a miserable place to be right now. It’s always been hard for writers, but now that many have lost their day jobs, things are even more depressing.
I didn’t participate in agentfail, but I have noticed I’ve been incredibly grumpy for several months, now. I used to be a cheerful person, but those days are gone. I, like many others, have been laid off from my job. I was an attorney at a large firm in New York. Now, I’m living in my parents’ basement in Indiana. I recently applied for a retail position. I didn’t get the job. The manager said, “we’re looking for long term candidates. You’ll go back to the legal community as soon as you can.” Okay, I’ll admit that’s true; no point in lying about it. I have eight years of higher education from reputable schools; I never thought I’d be begging for the opportunity to fold clothes at the Gap.
The point of this incredibly long post is simply that everyone is depressed and angry these days. I’m sure it was very difficult as an agent to read some of those comments. Try not to take it personally, difficult as that is. I suspect if the prompt had been “take the opportunity to vent about doctors/lawyers/bus drivers/husbands/wives/puppies/rainbows” the responses would have been just as harsh. It’s just a reflection of the times.
Genny says
Thanks for all the great links. I read Rachelle Gardner’s post earlier today and thought it was great too.
Jen C says
The point of this incredibly long post is simply that everyone is depressed and angry these days.
That’s a pretty random generalisation to make about over 6 billion people. I’m happier right now than I have ever been in my life. Just because the world is going through a tough time financially isn’t a reason for society to completely disintegrate.
Gees Louise. Here everyone, have a unicorn *throws unicorn*. Now, I’m going to go and put my hands over my ears and go “la la la la la la la”….
Word Veri: peessest. Teehee!
Jil says
I have not read agentfail and don’t plan to. But sometimes don’t you think people read anger into posts when the writer isn’t angry at all but just stating a thought? I’ve often seen people get all worked up over something I didn’t recognize at all. Perhaps if one is in a bad mood to begin with everything reads like an attack.
Let’s just hope any threats were really jokes – if not we’ll be your guards, Nathan.
By the way, why is the little figure after “word verification” in a wheel chair? Most ominous!
Oh yes. I’m enjoying Mira’s ComeinCharacter too.
Other Lisa says
@anon 9:08 PM – I am so sorry to hear about your difficulties. This is a tough time for a lot of people.
I just read the linked comment and could feel this person’s anger and desperation. Then you have absolutely insane outbursts like the man today who went into the center for immigrants and killed 13 people. I don’t think things are completely falling apart but there is an awful lot of free-floating anxiety and rage.
On the other hand, I took a nice long walk today – unlike the bad 80s song, some people do walk in LA. I walked up Rose Ave. and then through the Santa Monica Airport. It was a lovely walk. A beautiful day.
I’m not sure what assumptions people make when they see me on the street – maybe they’re thinking I don’t have a car, I’m some crazy person, who knows? And there weren’t many pedestrians on this route.
But as I was walking down Bundy, which is a busy street that borders the Santa Monica Airport, I passed a fellow, a man some years younger than I am, and you know, there’s that whole urban, do I need to have my armor on here, as a single woman? But nowadays, I go out of my way to smile. Maybe a little tentatively, but I try. And this guy smiles back, says, “Hi, how’re you doing?” or whatever, just a nice pleasant greeting, and I smile for real, thinking, you know, two strangers passing on a sidewalk in an unlikely place can make the day a little more pleasant for each other. We’re not all enemies here. We’re in this together.
Brenda says
Being the introverted, shy, afraid of the dark writer, (working on my first novel)I have never thought to blame the agent or the publisher or another writer. I have always thought if there was a problem with the writing then it was within me. And if the agent or publisher didn’t like my writing than I should move on to one that did.
Agentfail like its predecessor worries me. Is this what the publishing industry is all about?
Should I rethink my passion?
I sure hope not.
Barb says
I’m a little confused about this “given permission” thing. Don’t you decide how you are going to conduct yourself in every exchange? Regardless of whether you are posting as Anon or under an open name you are the only one who can decide if you have just communicated in a polite and fair manner.
A lot of the gripes seemed to be about a lack of respect, but they were written without respect.
If someone doesn’t treat you professionally, don’t deal with them again. If your work is good enough, you will find the right person to rep you.
Writer from Hell says
When you speak in anger, people only hear your anger not what you say.. I don’t remember who said that (coz I’m WfH) but I remember these words when I feel angry.
I think Mr. Bransford (ah thanks somebody for correcting me) you are such a sport but I feel sorry the writers’ anger is getting to you (even though it is not meant at you but in a sense at ‘all agents’). I understand, I don’t envy you your job.
Pls.. not all of us feel that way and do see agents as worthy partners and important value adds in the chain.
Absolute Vanilla (and Atyllah) says
Right, well there goes the rest of my morning! Great links – thanks!
eatsyourface says
I second the comment about Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy VII is, in my incredibly biased opinion *g*, one of the greatest games ever. Brilliant plot and awesome characterization done subtly. (The music and worldsetting is gorgeous.)
Thanks for the other links. I probably wouldn’t have heard the news on the Wheel of Time, and the other ones were interesting.
~Margy
Anonymous says
Bane,
It’s not just the internet the whole world is like that. I had a real flesh and blood stalker for 3 years who happened to live right down the road from me. What’s worse it wasn’t just me. My daughters were young. I had to call the cops on him 8 times. He did everything from dump a 6 foot pile of garbage he dug out of a ditch in my yard to threatening to beat me, my husband, and my 5’4″ fathers a**. We were called every name in the book, he cut our fence he would drive in the field right next to my house spinning his tires and shining his headlights in our window. He even aimed the bucket of his tractor neck level and drove straight at my parents in their car to block them from coming to my house. I could go on for hours, but I think you get it.
This was a prominent business man, no one believed it. It took collecting evidence for a very long time to get it stopped.
My point is you could cram every bit of that anger in Agentfail, and times it hundreds of times over and it wouldn’t equal one hour of his fury. You are cramming hundreds of writers into a little blog spot, all of them have been told to tell what their Agentfail is, it is going to look angrier than it is. People cuss like that all around me (I don’t, my mom would wash my mouth out) It’s a part of life. I am not kidding when I say I hear that kind of language all of the time and it is in flesh and blood, not on a computer screen. When you have a little post to vent your anger, you do what you can to get noticed. I am not saying it’s right. For all we know that person who typed that is 5 foot tall and weighs less than a hundred pounds. It’s life, everyday life to hear frustration like that. So please people move on, and learn from it.
BTW people believe me now, and he doesn’t bother us anymore.
Anonymous says
Oh, forgot tto sugn my name.
Marie Anon 6:22
Anonymous says
Hate it when I make typos.
That should have been sign. I’m sure there are others, but that one glared at me.
Anonymous says
I agree with what Jil said at 10:55
Her Quote: “…But sometimes don’t you think people read anger into posts when the writer isn’t angry at all but just stating a thought?…”
So, I’ve read all of AgentFail now. You know what, it feels good to know that other writers out there struggle like I do. As a writer you are trapped at your computer for months and months, trying to create something out of nothing. The only lifeline you have sometimes is the hope of your email inbox, that maybe it will be an agent request for a partial or full…
I’ve had an agent. A bad one. For the longest time I thought it was just me, that if I wrote better that woman would’ve been nicer to me or tried harder to sell something. At AgentFail there are posts about agented people whose agents don’t read their books for 4-5 months — that happened to me. There are posts about how people’s agents stopped sending their books out after one round. That happened to me. Posts about how agent’s wouldn’t even return their own client’s emails. That happened to me, too. It’s a relief to know you aren’t the only one.
I didn’t see most of the posts as scary or rage-filled. I saw quite a lot writers confused as to why they feel so disrespected in the business.
Scott says
I have a MAJOR bone to pick, here.”Walking in LA” is not a bad song. Tsk, and here I was all ready to join Other Lisa’s group hug. 😉
Thanks for the links, Nathan.
Mira says
I was so caught up with everything yesterday, I forgot to look at the links. Awesome. So much good reading.
Can I make a fellow plug? Since Rick Daley was so nice to mention my site, can I add how useful I’ve found his? The Query Slush Pile is a place people can post queries and get feedback from peers. There’s nothing like it that I know of, and it’s been really helpful to read!
I don’t know how to post links, but if you click on his profile, his blog is right there.
Also – Jil, thanks. I love having you at the blog.
Ink says
Sports metaphors!
I always think of a slushpile as an open tryout for a sports team. Who all’s been there with me? You got a bunch of hopefuls in a gym or on a field, and you play and compete while the coaches wander around evaluating everyone. And at the end… well, let us say it’s usually not an individual conference with every player that recounts their strengths and weaknesses amidst the reasons they did or didn’t make the team. It’s a list of names on a wall. A short list, with a lot of white space around it.
And there’s always going to be people looking at that list in vain, trying to will their name onto it when they don’t see the right letters arranged into a familiar and particular pattern. Stare hard enough and poof! it will magically appear. They’ll stand there thinking “Hey, didn’t they see that great crossover dribble I pulled on Joe that made him fall down?” And sometimes that might be all the person wants. A nice pat on the back and a “Great crossover back there. Better luck next time.” Not knowing, getting no feedback… well, there’s two options. Either the coaches did see you and didn’t think you were the best choice for the team or they actually didn’t see you, at least not clearly. Fair? Maybe not. But intentional? Not likely. Being furious, and even being right, won’t help you get on that team. I remember a friend once, in highschool, who when he got his grade for Gym went to the teacher and said “Hey, this isn’t the right mark. I think you mixed me up with Andrew…” He, um, didn’t get his grade changed. The only thing to do is get ready for the next tryout. If that team isn’t the right one you try out for a different team, and maybe that’s the one that will see and recognize your skills and give you a chance to play. Maybe this team’s desperate for a point guard with a nice crossover dribble.
I think Agentfail was a mixed bag. Some useful stuff, some non-useful. I think the idea was constructive criticism, but the result for some was simply a chance to vent. And often you could see the real reasons for anger showing through. I spent all that time working long hours for years writing this thing and killing myself while working two jobs and taking care of my family and all so agents can reject me and sometimes without even a response back, the SOBs! Now, are they really mad at the agents? A little displacement there, I think. Perceptions of their own failures pushing outward and finding a target, the only one avaiable: the agents. And posting anonymously… why hold back? Get it out, let the damn burst. Maybe they’ll feel better afterward. I can hope, anyway. Carrying that anger around can’t be good.
I do think much of the problem arises from that sense of perceived failure. Except that whole idea of failure is dangerous. I think you have to write the stories for yourself. I think you have to write them not for validation but for your own sanity and growth and creative engagement with the world. Publication is icing on the cake. You can’t let it’s lack demean your personal accomplishment. You’ve done something important for you – that’s what matters. Giving your sense of self into the hands of others is a recipe only for frustration and anger.
Maybe you really wanted to play in the NBA, and those coaches ignoring you really hurt… but that wasn’t why you started playing. I’m guessing there was a moment when the ball spun out of your hands in a perfect arc, a weightless flight, and descended with a silky snap through the mesh of the hoop… and in that moment you felt a rightness, a moment of personal exultation that you knew you needed, that you had to find again. The sound of the ball hitting the court was both an endpoint and a beginning, an invitation. An invitation to a space where there is only you and the ball and that orange rim draped in its inverted crown of white cord, and in that space all is perfect and tryouts are far, far away.
My best, as always,
Bryan Russell
Mira says
Also, in the spirit of mending bridges…
Nathan, a few weeks ago, I was going to ask Janet Reid to represent me to you, so that you’d represent me. I didn’t do this, because….well, I chickened out.
So, I was thinking. I thought: I know! I’ll represent myself. I’ll become an agent and represent myself to you so that you’ll represent me.
I know!!! No, don’t call me brilliant. Well, you can. Actually go ahead. But really, it’s not me. I obviously have no control over what pops into my head. It’s a gift.
Now, I’m not sure what you have to do to become an agent, but I figure if I just start calling myself an agent, that must be pretty close.
And how does this mend bridges? Well, now that I’m not only an agent and a writer, but my own client and my own agent, fighting with myself would be give me such a headache, I’d probably implode. That’s an incentive to get along if I ever heard one.
So, you can expect to hear from me soon on behalf of my client. Me.
Chuck H. says
Nathan…Mr. Bransford, Sir.
You bounced my query back in about 15 minutes and it hurt but I don’t hate you. At least I know you got it.
To quote that great Canadian philosopher, Red Green, “We’re all in this together and I’m pullin’ for ya. Keep your stick on the ice.”
Love, Peace, Flowers in your hair, Etc., etc., etc.
Tanya Egan Gibson says
Just wanted to say that I LOVE Bryan Russell’s analogy.
And Nathan, though I’ve already done it via e-mail, just wanted to thank you publicly for posting my book trailer!
P.S. – Readers of Nathan’s wonderful blog, if you have a story you’d like to share about how reading changed your life, submit it to my site and make your voices heard.
L.L. says
I visited Mira’s Come In Character blog because of this post, and joined in the fun today. A great way to get the muse going.
Ink says
Tanya,
Thanks for the kind comment. And I must say that’s the best book trailer I’ve ever seen. I’ve seen a lot of cheesy ones, that pushed me away more than encouraged me to buy, and a few pretty good ones. But that one was very slick, and I definitely got a hoot out of it. The x-ray vision beams coming out of that kid’s eyes… priceless.
My best,
Bryan Russell
Anonymous says
Wow, I just read what I wrote about my neighbor not bothering anymore. It makes it sound like I killed him. The prosecuting attorney finaly got involved. He no longer bothers us, but he is doing it to other people now.
Sorry for sounding like a psycho.
Marie
Mira says
Dear Mr. Bransford,
I am contacting you on behalf of my client, Mira. I represent her in her seach for representation.
As an agent myself, I have oddles and oodles and oddles of prescience and can tell you that representing Mira would be the best decision you ever made. In your life. It would solve all of your problems in one fell swoop. It would bring untold riches and power beyond your imagination. It would bring you lifelong contentment and happiness. It would give you eternal youth and the power to fly.
Now, if that’s not enough, let me tell you about my client.
a. She has written exactly one and 1/2 pages and says at least half of what she wrote is semi-intelligble. She promises to write another page if you represent her, and more pages after that if the mood strikes. I think the benefits of a client like this speak for itself. (I hope so, actually, because I’m drawing a complete blank here.)
b. She has exactly 49.5 ideas. She says some of those ideas are just as good as the one where I represent her. I know!
c. She has tons of potential. Why she has so much potential dripping from her fingers, gushing from her ears, and oozing from her pores, that I can barely stand to look at her.
d. She has told me that if I don’t get you to represent her, she will fire my ass. I really need my ass. Frankly, I’d beg you if it wouldn’t be unprofessional (oh my god, please represent her, on my god, please, please, please, please.)
I think you can see this is the deal of a lifetime. I’ll expect her from you soon. You can e-mail me at Mira’s address. She’ll forward it to me.
In fraternity,
Mira, Agent representing Mira
Mira says
There. That should mend some bridges.
And get me a signing contract.
A good day’s work.
Writer from Hell says
actually thats not true. We are the ones doing unenviable jobs!
n this blogpost has the most open, honest, creative n varied discussion that I’ve seen on any blog. And thats coz the blogger here is really inspiring n a good sport!
L Violet says
I read most of agentfail before growing weary. I found it heartening. It’s always validating to learn that you’re not the only one in a frustrating situation.
Not being a literary agent, I didn’t perceive great hostility or anger in most of the posts. If the topic had been the incompetence of one of the professions I’ve worked in, I guess I would be feeling the hate.
Just as queryfail was instructive, in a negative way, to writers, agentfail ought to be instructive to literary agents.
Apparently, the great majority of agents with an online presence are quite young–and have the brashness, sense of invulnerability, and entitlement of youth. The young eventually learn how the other end of the stick they’re wielding feels. It’s a reality check, kids.
It’s subjective, but I really don’t see much vitriol in the agentfail posts. There’s disgust, frustration, outrage, and a few tears. Those are normal reactions to bad treatment.
wv: disho. The fun kitchen game I’ll be playing for the next hour.
Sarah Laurenson says
OK, Nathan. I read the comment you linked to as an example of the anger at #agentfail.
There was a lot of anger there, maybe, but it seemed like a lot of self-pity to me. Yes, writing is a hard business. And yes, a lot of us have day jobs and families and what all taking up most of our time and we squeeze our writing into the little cracks and crevices of our day as we can.
That’s the way this business works on our end. And that’s the choice I make to pursue my dream of being published and perhaps, one day, financially supporting myself with my writing.
I have made choices with my day job that led to my being successful in that respect. And that, too, involved having a talent for that business as well as learning new things, taking risks, dealing with wacko managers, and companies that do not have my best interest at heart.
I think there’s an expectation with writing that it can be some kind of magical career that means living joyous, happy and free with lots of money and attention. Perhaps it’s this perception of the life of a writer that leads to so much anger from the disappointment of reality.
So, I see self-pity. I see disappointment. I see dashed hopes and dreams. But I also see choices that were made by the writer without a realistic understanding of what this business really entails. I think most of us come to it from this perspective. And the learning curve can be steep and harsh. Having a few bad agents and a few bad policies that seem to be popular only exacerbates this emotionally charged, rejection riddled profession.
And it’s Saturday morning and I haven’t had breakfast yet. My rambling opinion, FWIW.
Other Lisa says
@scott – Missing Persons is one of those downfalls of New Wave bands for me…now X’s “Los Angeles”…
Do I still get my hug?
(It’s okay, I’m not really a hugger)
Scott says
Fair enough, I like X, too. But “Words” blows anything they did away, in my humble opinion. Maybe they lacked a certain street cred that X had, but that’s one tasty tune.
And in the spirit of agreeing to disagree…*hugs her anyway* 🙂
debmarshall says
HAH! LOVED that book trailer, thanks for sharing it. Ya. I think I saw myself (and my brother in there), when we were littler-ish (g).
Jenn’s post was a great way to start a day of revising, thanks for that, too. Looking forward to her book.
valbrussell says
Lawyer = smart, NO
Lawyer = crafty. The two are not the same. 😉 Agents are brokers. Period. Make them money and you make them happy? Correct? It’s all about the money honey and not one thing more. If you can’t write, you won’t make money, if you can write, you will make money. If you have a flair for self promotion as well as writing talent and are prolific, you will make lots of money. Think Big Mac Meal and not filet mignon and you won’t be far off with what sells. Pity really, because there are so many artists out here toiling away at work that is interesting, daring and complex, but they will never see the light of day because the masses are so intellectually stupid. One story that never fails to rub the cat’s fur the wrong way involves the publishing history of a little work of art called ‘A Confederacy Of Dunces.’ Poor John Kennedy Toole.
Nathan Bransford says
bryan-
Definitely a great analogy, and I think when you add in a bit of desperation, whether that’s induced by a bad financial situation or a family who maybe put up with the amount of time it took to write a novel but wants results, it dials things up to an extreme level. When people start getting desperate they can’t bear to blame themselves for their own lack of success, and they find a scapegoat. It’s pretty easy to blame agents or the query process and to catalog our shortcomings.
And I understand the view expressed by some here that agentfail was a simple matter of people blowing off steam. And to be sure, maybe some people were.
But my concern is that threads like agentfail validate some authors’ sense of aggrievement in an unhealthy way, and they wind up being more extreme in their anger and sense that they’ve been wronged.
I don’t think the belief that agents owe prospective authors should be validated. I just won’t agree with it. It’s not realistic, it’s not productive, and I don’t think writers should convince themselves that they deserve it. What happens when 30,000 people are sending me their queries? 50,000? Where will it end? The only people I owe anything to are my clients. Everything else I do because I believe in courtesy and going the extra mile and I’m trying to help people, but I’m not doing it because I owe anyone anything. I’m drawing a line in the sand on that one, for myself and for the perfectly wonderful agents who have no-response policies.
There have been psychological studies that found that when you put people of similar views in a room on a controversial issue, not only are their existing views reinforced, their views tend to become more extreme. And I think you saw that as the thread went on. Things grew gradually more extreme when people got riled up by the angry views that were already expressed.
And I think agents have every right to be unsettled by that. I’m really surprised that people can read those posts and not think there’s something unsettling about them or that it represents simple venting. Can you even imagine if an agent went on a ranting, cursing, raving post about how horrible authors are, even anonymously? Imagine. The Internet would probably catch fire and explode with the ensuing outrage.
It doesn’t make it right for agents to be out of line and unprofessional and I won’t defend them when they are, but I also am surprised people are defending all of the posters in that thread.
Ink says
Nathan,
I’d agree with that. I hope a lot of them just blew off steam and got back into normal moods afterwards. But I understand the danger. I think the request to post anonymously backfired a bit on that thread. I think Jessica just wanted every one to feel secure so that they could offer honest constructive criticism without worrying. Instead it became a chance to vent anger and go headhunting. Not nice. A bit of the snark on queryfail, to me, was unprofessional, but there was no anger. I mean, I think some of the agents might get tired and annoyed by the repetition of the task… but there was a lot of rage on Agentfail (though a number of constructive and honest comments too). I agree that there’s a difference. And I agree that group “vents” are dangerous.
Reminds me of that old prison study. They took college boys as volunteers, and took them to a prison. Some became guards, and some became prisoners, with realistic moments of interaction between them. Within days there were horrible abuses going on and many of the “inmates” were breakind down from the psychological stress. The study was called off. Group behavior is spooky. Being part of a group hugely weakens inhibitions. Someone made a suggestion about having a “What would your ideal agent be like?” day, which I think would be better, because it’s framed constructively and postively (even if the content might be similar).
Lol, you’d think as writers and agents we’d be more conscious of language effects. It’s why I hate the binary idiocy of the whole internet pass/fail language. Yes/no, black/white… while most of life is lived in the graded areas of greyness in between. Life is a little more subtle and complex than pass/fail. I think that’s one of the reasons I like it here, as there are a lot of people willing to wade into the grey areas.
Oh, and you can use the analogy in that future bestseller Everything I Know About Publishing I Learned from Sports. I’m going to pre-order from Amazon, myself.
Bryan
Elaine 'still writing' Smith says
While everyone commenting got ever more defensive and protective of you – ‘as yeah sow …’
Irreligious I may be – apt it certainly was!
Surely it must be fun in the sun time?
Bane of Anubis says
Marie, I get what you’re saying, but my focus is on the idea that nobody ever knows the psyche behind the words. People snap and you never know what’s gonna push them over the edge. You can see some people breaking from miles away, whereas others you never know until the proverbial too late – as Nathan alluded to, the problem is what I call the cow mentality. When everyone’s in a room saying “moo,” you want to say “moo” louder and longer than the rest and eventually that cathartic/enraged nonsense can help tip the balance into crazy-land – a place where we never know what’s gonna happen.
Some glibness aside (and some added), it’s excellent to hear that your stalker went bye-bye (and being a retributive cow that I am, if that’s in a dark place filled with worms, it bothers me not).
Bane of Anubis says
Bryan, I remember that prison study – absolutely awesome how facocked we humans are.
Nathan Bransford says
Definitely, Bryan — the Stanford Prison Experiment, in case anyone is interested in reading more. I took a class from the professor who conducted the experiment, and he talked about how he got so wrapped up in the experiment and how exciting it all was he wasn’t able to see that it was becoming psychologically damaging to the participants and that he was becoming complicit in the mental abuse that the “guards” were inflicting upon the “prisoners”. It took another professor to wake him up to what was happening.
He talked about it as an illustration of how difficult it is to think clearly in a group setting that has its own inertia. The prisoners could have opted out at any time, but for some reason they stayed in as well. It’s a really fascinating/horrifying study.
Ink says
And for anyone who wants to hear him talk about the Stanford Prison Experiment in person, you can check it out here.
Warning: disturbing and graphic photos from Abu Ghraib.
Interesting stuff, though.
Bryan
Jen C says
When everyone’s in a room saying “moo,” you want to say “moo” louder and longer than the rest and eventually that cathartic/enraged nonsense can help tip the balance into crazy-land – a place where we never know what’s gonna happen.
I’m the type of person who, when everyone is saying moooo, will roll my eyes and say baaaa just to be different.
But Nathan and Bryan, I think you’ve really hit the nail on the head with the psychology behind where #agentfail ended up.
Chris Bates says
Nathan said: People can get mad, or they can get working.
And there it is…
Look, I gotta tell ya all this failure stuff is wreaking havoc on my ability to sit down and work.
I have the biggest love/hate relationship with the internet … and this site of yours, Bransford.
I have no idea why I’m even here – hell, I’m not even looking for an agent!
Time to log out and … “get working.”
camelama says
Apropos of nothing, I just have to say … my “ha ha ha AS IF” pick of Michigan State in the final two … is jaw-droppingly coming true. ZOMG. Who lit a fire under the Spartans?!
Jan says
I firmly believe that agents owe nothing to people who submit queries or unsolicited materials. I don’t *like* the “no answer means no” thing but that’s just because I don’t like it, not because I think writers are owed better.
However, I think as soon as the agent steps up and begins a relationship (any kind of relationship) the agent does “owe” something to professionalism.
I don’t think the agent owes a detailed response or even a personal response to requested material (again, it would be nice, but not owed), but I do think the agent “owes” an actual notice of severing of the very minor interaction he began…he owes a rejection. Form is fine, rejection is rejection, it all means “no” and means it quite clearly.
And I believe these is a steady increase in what is “owed” to professionalism as the agent asks more and more of the relationship (minor though it is). If the agent actually asked for revisions (for example) then a short but personal note (not details, just a “thanks for trying this but it still isn’t working for me and I don’t want you to invest more time into something where I’m probably not the right match for you.” would meet what is “owed” by professionalism.
What a writer ideally wants is going to tend to be pie in the sky, but I do think that to be a courteous professional, some things are required just by that standard. Once you start something, you should finish it…and finish it to at an ever-increasing level of courtesy depending upon what you asked for.
Agents don’t start the flood of unsolicited (except perhaps by merit of not slamming the door shut…but calling that an obligation on the agent is just unfair). But if the agent steps up to purposefully continue the relationship to further steps by the author, I do think professionalism does require certain things of the agent, IF the agent wants to (1) consider himself/herself a professional and (2) if the agent wants snarking rights when writers act like jerks who totally ignore professionalism in their own behaviors.
Of course, no one owes me agreement on these points, but naturally, I think I’m right…sadly, I mostly always do.
Anonymous says
Hi…
I don’t have time to read ALL of the posts here. I don’t know if my saying this will make anything better. There are writers out there that get it.
I’ve been writing for seven years. I’m not published. I don’t have an agent. I write because I love it. It’s exciting and fun. It’s a thrill to send my work out there and see what people have to say.
One really awesome author gave me the best advice once, and I will never forget it.
If it’s not fun, why write? Sure it’s a lot of work, a lot of “mystery” for some… but If I had the level of angst that some have on agentfail and also here…
I wouldn’t have these manuscripts (2 that were really crappy ( I am not just saying that for pity… I’m talking x-men meets lord of the rings and the characters top it off with a regency era ball crappy haha)… but with awesome advice and feedback from an agent and editors… I learned how to write something better…)
So, I am a little confused at the anger. It would really take the fun out of it for me, and I’d have to stop writing.
Find the fun! Write something better! … Forget about it, and don’t let it stop you :). And annon or not, don’t give into bad attitudes that could effect your creativity. And thank your agents and editors, they are the ones who will someday– if you don’t give up– push you to create your best story.
The only one stopping you is you, and move on, find something else… or write something better.
~from Annon the writer of the space regency with demons ;)….
Mira says
You know a good way to get some of the anger off the agents right now?
Let’s do publisherfail. Boy, you think you saw anger last week.
That would be so much fun. (I’m a writer. I LOVE drama.)
I also want to say calming down is good. Having productive discussions is also good. Sure once people get going all anger about everything in the world can get directed at one source. Mob/group ‘think’ is real – and it also happened on queryfail (imho)- but there really is one inescapable fact here.
Many writers are very, very upset with agents and have had some really, really bad experiences.
This is not a good thing. An industry as a whole that is ignoring the importance of developing good will with their suppliers (because that’s what writers are) is extraordinarily short sighted.
Group think can also convince people that they aren’t doing anything wrong, people were just upset, out of control, whatever label you want to give it.
You don’t get that degree of anger without something real at the bottom.
Don’t believe me? Do Tulipfail. ChocolateChipCookiefail. WhenWillSpringComefail.
See how much angst you get then.
Mira says
well, maybe not Tulipfail.
I’m pretty miffed at those tulips.