An anonymous commenter in yesterday’s post asked me how I felt about people submitting queries they did not write. This apparently is the result of a discussion in the comments section of another blog (I don’t know which one*).
This isn’t actually a purely straightforward question for me and I’ll have more on my own thoughts tomorrow, but I thought I would broaden the question a bit more:
1) How do you feel about these ghost queries?
2) What about queries that are substantially revised with the help of a critique group, i.e. queries by committee?
3) How much help is appropriate?
4) Is it a good strategy?
Looking forward to this discussion.
*UPDATE: The discussion originated at PubRants and Courtney Milan’s blog.
lotusgirl says
I think the bulk of the query should be done by the author, but having a second pair of eyes looking for mistakes and flow seems fine. By committee seems a bit much. I think the agent needs to get a real feel for the author’s style and voice at its best not a conglomeration of voices all mixed together.
That said. I’m sure there are instances where it has worked well for the writer to have someone else do their query, but it just doesn’t seem honest to me. Of course, that begs the question: Is honesty what we’re shooting for?
other lisa says
I agree with those who say there is nothing wrong with having a critique group work on your query. They’ve read your MS and presumably helped you with it, so why not get their insight on your query?
In my case, my buddies made all kinds of suggestions and gave great feedback. They rewrote what I had (and I was grateful for that). I had all of that in mind when I sat down and rewrote my query yet again. I think the query ended up being all my own words, but having all that input definitely shaped the way I wrote it. Their suggestions led me to a better understanding of what worked and what didn’t.
I guess if having someone else write the thing for you works, I don’t have a problem with it. The writer still has to have the goods; the query is a sales pitch.
Jarucia says
Definitely agree with those saying ‘no’ to a query ghost-writer.
The agents themselves have given the best reason…they get brilliant queries followed by dreck MS’s. It’s really a waste of everyone’s time.
Query proof-readers who KNOW your work are groovy, but the author must resist doing stuff that IS NOT in their own writer’s voice.
Marilyn Peake says
I thoroughly enjoyed reading PubRants and Courtney Milan’s blog. Got a real chuckle out of those posts. I’ve always written my own queries and have never workshopped my novels or short stories. Having said that, however, I definitely understand why someone would get help in writing a query letter. As Courtney pointed out, how one writes a query letter doesn’t always reflect how one writes fiction. I personally know many authors who workshopped their query letters and subsequently landed contracts with top agents, as well as book deals and great advances from the large publishing houses. Clearly, their fiction writing was good enough to be published, even though they needed help with query letters!
bettyk says
I took courses at an on-line writing school to learn the fine points of writing fiction. Similarly I took courses on “Marketing Your Work” at an on-line writing school. The instructor in the course on “How to Write Query Letters” was a Literary Agent. I see nothing wrong with it. Seems to me new writers are encouraged to “workshop”. Being able to write is a gift; learning to write well is a skill.
(Corrected due to a grammatical error.)
Sarah Jensen says
RW said…
“I can’t understand WHY anyone would even feel it’s necessary. Isn’t a query just “here’s what my work is about; would you like to see some of it?” How hard is that to do yourself? I understand wanting to give yourself every chance to succeed, but sweating a query letter so much seems to put too much importance on that step.”
But if an agent never sees more than your query, a fresh pair of eyes might help. My query is in my voice, but I’ve had help revising it. I’ve since rewritten it, but it wouldn’t be half as good if not for the wonder people at querytracker.net
And yes, I’ve had others read my MS and tell me where I was lacking or where things needed to be cut. Including Ray Rhamey at Flogging The Quill.
The story is solely mine. The characters live in my head. If I don’t agree one hundred percent with a suggestion, I don’t change it. But I want to learn and grow as a writer, and I think that comes from learning what others have to say.
Tiffany Chalmers says
I don’t see a problem having queries critted or written by others. It’s a sales pitch. Not all writers are born to sales. That’s the agent’s and editors job.
I’ve used my critique group to help me write my queries. I’d do it again if I still had to write them (thank god I don’t).
I don’t think it says anything bad about the writers ability to write. I think it says they were smart enough to outsource when they knew they couldn’t do their book justice.
Nikki Hootman says
I had someone read/critique my novel. Afterward, I showed her a draft of my query. She flat-out told me that my query didn’t reflect my novel, the tone of my writing, or the focus of the story.
Condensing your 100K-word novel into a couple of paragraphs can be totally crazy-making. Sometimes an outside perspective is exactly what is needed to create a query that is accurate and representative of your work.
And as others have pointed out, like a resume, the query is just what gets your foot in the door. If your writing isn’t up to snuff, you’re not going anywhere. If it IS something wonderful, then who cares who wrote your query?
BJ says
Me? I think that getting help — critique groups, etc. — is perfectly fine. It’s a means of learning how to do it right.
To those who wonder ‘who would tell an agent it was a query service who wrote it?’: They don’t have to. Often, a query from a service comes across like it was cut from a cookie cutter (or query cutter, perhaps).
All that said, it really depends on the agent whether they would be happy with a manufactured query letter. Some refuse them. Some may not. It’s a matter of preference, really.
MzMannerz says
I haven’t read enough queries by powerful novelists to answer this question. I’d need to see the query letters submitted by top notch authors (actually, I think we all should) and that would tell me whether or not there really is a disconnect between the ability to write a query and the ability to write a novel.
elizaw says
I think that you should write your own query. Just like anything else, it’s a part of learning to be a writer. But to not get help on said query letter? That’s just silly. You have test readers for your novel, to correct mistakes and help you revise your work. What’s wrong with doing the same for a query letter?
Half of the problem with querying is that there is simply too much novel to stuff into a 300-word letter. Opinions of people who can tell you what the most important parts of the story, what stuck out the most, can be vital to deciding what to include.
Write it yourself. Get as much help as you need to make it excellent.
ChristaCarol says
Jennifer Jackson also has a bit of a mention of it in her latest blog, comparing queries to food chains (be prepared to be hungry).
I’ll be honest, when I first finished my manuscript and entered into the hell that is writing a query letter, I contemplated and questioned the idea of having someone else write it. But then I realized the passion, let alone MY voice, wouldn’t get through to the reader (agent) like it should.
Now, if it’s something like a non-fiction work, which in essence is really a proposal, I wouldn’t be so against it. Depending on the subject matter, of course.
Madison says
I personally think it’s cheating if a writer does not write his/her own query. Getting help is one thing. My query, which goes out on the 15th, was greatly helped by the wonderful people over on AW (www.absolutewrite.com). But I still wrote it myself.
I didn’t have a stratagey except for research. I looked up I don’t know how many “How to Write the Perfect Query” things that are plastered all over the web. Some were really great and others, well, not so much.
In this business today, you have to know how to sell your work. We are putting ourselves and our project out there for all to see. You think anyone’s going to want to buy something that you haven’t promoted yourself? Ah, probably not. So, queries are a great way to start building those sale skills.
Mary says
Wow. Call me honest, but having someone else write your query seems akin to paying a corrupt PhD to sit your exams. However, if a writer feels that is the route for them, I suppose it is justifiable if the query is viewed purely as a sales pitch that requires a separate talent.
Anonymous says
No you don’t tell the agent you got help, and there’s nothing wrong with getting it.
Plenty of people have trouble shifting gears from narrative writing to business letters. You spend a year fleshing out a story into 100,000 words, and now you find yourself having to trim 90,500 of them while still conveying the story. Sometimes you NEED those other eyes to get to the core of the plot and trim out the extra characters.
The place where I post (and yes, help people with their queries) doesn’t write the letters for anyone. The author posts a letter and others offer advice on how to make it sing.
Sarah Jensen says
So I posted my different queries on one of my blogs, anyone up for telling me what they think?
https://legendoftheprotectors.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/writing-your-own-query/
😉
Wendy Burt-Thomas says
I just wrote an entire book on queries and can tell you that if someone can’t write a great query, they can’t write a great book. You wouldn’t have someone shake an editor’s hand on your behalf, would you? Your query is your first impression. It shouldn’t be a hand-me-down.
Wendy Burt-Thomas
“The Writer’s Digest Guide to Query Letters”
(January 2009, Writer’s Digest Books)
Anonymous says
With all due respect, Wendy, your opinion is presented with a bias. Your book’s success is dependent on writers needing it. Writers becoming dependent on professional querying services would reduce the pool of potential buyers for your book.
This question has to be answered by people who have no conflict of interest.
JES says
Bottom line:
1) I myself don’t mind that people do it (although I’d have a really hard time doing it myself).
2) No problem.
3) I thought Courtney and Sherry struck a great balance. As she explains on her blog, Courtney had gone around and around and around with the query’s structure; Sherry more or less took pity and said, “Okay, stop for a second, can you try something like this…?” Light bulb goes on over Courtney’s head. Courtney reworks her query. It sells.
4) Whether it’s a good strategy depends ultimately on the outcome, which depends on how well the “query reviser/rewriter” understands the work and understands the work’s author, which depends on how well the author communicates with the reviser/rewriter… and then, obviously, it all depends on the improved query’s landing in the right agent’s Inbox. In this case, it worked all around and I cheer for Courtney and wish Sherry would take pity on me, too. 🙂
sex scenes at starbucks says
[rant commencing]: If people would write their queries (and synopses) BEFORE and DURING drafting and revising, they wouldn’t be such a problem. I’ve critted well over a hundred queries in the past few years and the ones with problems are from writers who “pantzed” their novel and have no idea what the actual story is about. I’m not a huge proponent of detailed plotting, but why write a book without knowing what the central idea and the “hook” is? [end rant]
There’s a big difference between getting someone else to write your query for you and getting advice. The author will have to write one at some point. Critiquers come and go, but queries will always remain a part of this business.
Just_Me says
1) It works. I’ve seen people post queries that hooked them agents who say, “Well, my friend really wrote it.”
2) Is there such a thing as a query or book not done by committee if you’ve found a critique group? Just getting a short story cleaned for submission I have three or four people I’ll show the piece to and ask for help. They comment, tweak, edit, and sometimes suggest lines to make it better. I do the same for them.
Later my writing will be by a committee of an editor, and agent, and myself. Just because you have a great idea and can put it on paper (or word) doesn’t mean you can edit yourself to an acceptable standard. That’s why editors exist and self-published books have a bad reputation.
3) For a query? As much as is needed! As long as the author’s voice and ideas are there any help they can get is good.
4) If it sells your ideas and books to the world, yes. There will never be a situation where a good author will be so alone that they don’t have someone else reviewing, editing, and changing their book before publication. Why would it be different for the query?
*Point* I do think the author ought to do the writing and the work for their book. Their idea needs to be their own as does the voice. But I don’t honestly believe anything in this day and age is done in isolation when it comes to the publishing industry. All our work is by committee.
Anita says
Anon 1:48: I think if you saw the full content of Wendy’s book, as I have, you’d realize your statement is flawed. The book contains a lot more than just basic info on querying. It’s a little warehouse of querying info.
Nathan Bransford says
anons-
Goodness, no need to be so cynical. No one has said an author can magically write a good query from thin air. What I (and others in the business) have said is that good authors (with practice, information, feedback, etc.) can write a good query letter.
Anonymous says
It was a valid question, Nathan. It would’ve been interesting to see the author’s answer. Sorry to offend you. I do respect your blog and your right to moderate posts.
Nathan Bransford says
anon-
Maybe you can put it differently?
Dale - lvcabbie says
I think a good comparison would be between being a writer and a salesperson. One may produce great prose but be unable to condense it so that a very busy agent would want to read it. It’s not easy to condense 100,000 plus pages into three or four paragraphs.
I find writing my novels enjoyable although I’m not always thrilled with the very important polishing phase. What drives me up the wall is trying to cendense them into a query and a synopsis.
I wonder how many published authors actually produced their own query.
Anonymous says
Thanks Nathan.
My question/ comment is directed to Wendy.
My understanding of your comment is that if a writer can’t write a good query than she can’t write a good novel. Yet, I don’t feel that’s exactly accurate. I think your statement is a gross generalization. Others on this blog have posted information about successful queries, and in some cases the writer didn’t write them or at least had some help writing them. So, I’d like to know if you consider writers who get ‘help’ (critique feedback, betas, etc), and use that information to craft good queries, bad writers?
Also, if writers who write bad queries are bad writers, what would be the purpose to seek out query help in books and online, etc, if in the end they are just bad writers?
Wanda B. Ontheshelves says
Query Committees and [verb] [villain] gridlock
I’m all for queries by committee – even a very small committee of one person – my novel has a “godmother” – I just sent her a package of novel-related items, and am hoping between that and my website, she will be able to give me her usual excellent help, I mean, feedback.
And I think if you have a writing group giving feedback already on your novel – why not get their input on your query?
Totally ghostwritten query – thumbs down.
***
Alas, last month I finally completed the “fill in the blank” query form from way back when – and I realize that the [verb][villain] part of my novel is about, oh, two paragraphs long. It’s literary fiction (I like to think high concept, but who knows), so it’s not a technicolor slaying of evil mythical creatures type thing, but still…I’ve figured out a way to give it more heft / length…but I’m not thrilling to going back and editing…anyone else’s query forcing them to go back and edit their novel?? My sympathy.
Wendy Burt-Thomas says
Hi all,
To respond to the post by Anonymous: I absolutely think it’s fine for people to get feedback/advice on their query letters. I encourage people to join critique groups, get second (and third) opinions, etc. My response was geared to Nathan’s post: about “people submitting queries they did not write.”
Wendy
Anonymous says
I am not sure “committee work” helps queries. I belong to a number of writers groups and I have seen queries that albeit had a few nits to pick turned into mediocre pap as the author tried to please everyone and incorporate everyone’s comments. The best bet is to use group comments as you would on a chapter of your book – filter them through your own voice and instinct. Not everyone has to love your query (certainly not everyone in your writers group), especially if it is garnering results.
150 says
They don’t bother me, but then I don’t have to read them by the hundreds.
Amy says
Nathan – I’m glad you’re sharing your comments tomorrow.
1) How do you feel about these ghost queries?
If a person did not write his or her query they should properly attribute the author who did.
2) What about queries that are substantially revised with the help of a critique group, i.e. queries by committee?
Depends on how much help. Help with revisions and feedback from workshop and critique groups is great. Using other peoples exact words in substantial length and passing them off on as your own is not. I’m not an expert, but I believe legally you can’t borrow something that is the length of a phrase or it’s considered plagiarism.
3) How much help is appropriate?
As much as a person needs as long as someone’s exact words are not used without attribution.
4) Is it a good strategy?
Sure, as long as the writer isn’t plagiarizing. Also, I think query letters help authors see holes in their stories. If they are having trouble with the query, maybe there is trouble with the book. I’ve found in the instances when I had trouble writing a query, it was because my book had a problem. SEX SCENES AT STARBUCKS said it perfectly on her post.
It’s all about proper attribution.
Professor Tarr says
Perhaps what this discussion has shown us more than anything is that an author’s role is more than writing a great book. There are many facets to being a writer. I think for me personally, it shows that I should look at all aspects of my writing with a critical eye.
The first biker story I ever submitted to Easyriders way back when was rejected out of hand. I was so angry. I was cynical and arrogant; got defensive and pouted mercilessly.
It was a form rejection even and my manuscript was sent back all marked up – dozens of diacritical marks on every page! The nerve of those people – how could they? Didn’t they know what a genius I was and how funny my story was?
So it sat in my drawer for a few months and I moved on to other things. Eventually I pulled it out and realized that somebody somewhere had taken the time to mark up my manuscript. They wouldn’t have done that unless they were on the verge of using it.
So I went back in and retyped the whole thing. I took every suggestion – even ones I cringed at doing – excising my precious words – and when that was done, I reasoned that even after the editing, they still had reservations – so I tried imagining what the objections were and then wrote around them.
I eventually tightened the whole thing up and sent it back in. It got published, I made money and they offered me a fiction series, which I loved.
But it took that critical look at myself to make that happen.
I still do that with my queries. Everytime I get a form letter back, I sit there and try to think of why it didn’t catch the appropriate mindshare. My query was rejected by Nathan in October and I think I have changed it a dozen times since then – partly on the committee-think of this blog and this community of shared writing passion.
I’m not going to resubmit, but I bet if I did Nathan would see a much more professional query than the one I sent prior. That’s what we are doing here – supporting, nurturing and helping each other grow as artists. I get sad when I see us turn on each other as a community. We are artists all.
Anonymous says
I’m actually stunned no one has picked up on agent clindsay’s 10:55 response.
Quote: “…But I have never once seen really good pages accompanied by a crappy query letter…”
You’ve got to be kidding me! Isn’t this why Janet Reid always asks for pages, the queries sometimes suck, but the writing is stellar? (yes, I realize you aren’t Janet Reid, but, you know… NEVER ONCE…?”
Creative A says
Normally I would object to something like this, except I’ve done it before, and I knew the motives behind it. There was someone who posted their revised queries over and over on a critique forum. Reading all the queries, you could see they had a good story, they just didn’t know where to focus it, didn’t know how to get past their own internal stumbling blocks. The person had tried it all.
At that point, I offered to write the query for them as a guideline which they could use to shape or form their own query.
Now, granted, the person could have just used my query, which would have been deceitful. But in that situation, I felt the person was struggling to “get it,” and the only way to help would be to show them. Once they had something to work with, they could shape it to fit their own way of writing.
Technically, I wrote the query for them. But what was needed was the focus, the example, which is why I did it, and I think that’s what they took away.
I think the term query committee makes it sounds as if everyone did the work for you. It’s possible that this happens, but for the most part, I think people are just helping other people straighten out the part that they struggle with. If they couldn’t do it themselves, that would misrepresent the persons abilities. If they could do it, but just struggled, I would not feel that was deceitful.
Whoo. That was long. I’ve really been wondering about this, especially because of my experience with it, so I appreciate you starting the topic, Nathan.
-CA
Lea says
There’s nothing wrong with having another pair of eyes help you out with a query. The query is a make or break deal and you need to get it right the first time.
The way we have critique groups to help us hone our work, the same applies for queries.
Stephanie says
Seems to me, if an agent or publisher is going to get a feel for a writer’s voice and writing style via the query, the writer needs to have written it. What if the agent got that query, liked the idea, but didn’t really connect with the writer’s voice? The writer could be cheating himself out of the chance of a lifetime. That said, there’s nothing wrong with running a query letter past a critique group and getting some thoughts. It just seems to me the author needs to do the writing…on every piece of material in the submission packet.
Bee says
Anything done by committee is usually only as good as the least member of the committee. I think a comedian once posited that the elephant was designed by committee. Oh well, you get my drift.
I see nothing wrong with having someone knowledgeable in the publishing world look at your query. Sometimes a fresh eye will notice something that you missed.
But a critique group? Gotta be careful there. Personalities may intervene and you could get bad advice. I like Dr. Dad’s take: “One has to wonder how much of his work is also “by committee.”
Rachel says
I think that while outside help with minor revisions of a query letter is fine, a ghost query ultimate hurts a writer. Whether writers like it or not, queries are an important part of the writing process. Writing a query can help a writer define his or her work better, as well as the specific audience it is for. Writers who don’t write their own queries are cheating themselves.
other lisa says
I have to disagree about one thing. I think that someone can be a very good novelist and not always write good queries. I’ve seen it. This really is a different kind of writing, and, yeah, we should be able to do it, but it’s not the same skill set as writing a novel.
Phoenix says
Writing is a competitive business. Emphasis on “business”. The BOOK is a product. Agents and editors have tried to establish a gatekeeping mechanism geared to filter work a writer is trying to sell. That’s good business on their part. Finding a way past the gatekeeper is good business on the writer’s part.
There’s an old adage in the business-proposal-writing world: “A good proposal by itself doesn’t win the business, but a bad proposal can lose it.” The moral: Don’t submit a bad proposal.
How many times have I seen it stated on agent sites that a query is a business letter? Do you think the person trying to sell you insurance writes their own sales letter? No, they hire someone like me to do it for them if they want to make the best sales pitch they can, sell their product, and pay their mortgage. Why should writers be held to different ethics and standards when it comes to their product?
M Clement Hall says
Politicians, captains of business and generals of armies get their memoirs ghost written.
The simple writer pays hundreds of dollars to attend courses on how to write a query.
Is it any wonder some queries will be ghost written?
And does that turn a sow’s ear into a silk purse?
I doubt it.
Anonymous says
I don’t see why it would be a problem. Yes, agents use the query letter to judge whether or not an author can write well, but really a query letter is essentially a business letter. No one would say it was dishonest if a person’s administrative assistant wrote a business letter that he or she signed. Many people hire others to write their resumes. It is the agents who have decided that the query letter is like a test, but that doesn’t mean the authors have to agree.
Nathan Bransford says
“Do you think the person trying to sell you insurance writes their own sales letter? No, they hire someone like me to do it for them if they want to make the best sales pitch they can, sell their product, and pay their mortgage. Why should writers be held to different ethics and standards when it comes to their product?”
Insurance agents aren’t selling writing, they’re selling insurance. Writers are selling their writing. And they shouldn’t be expected to be able to write???
Adaora A. says
1) How do you feel about these ghost queries?
2) What about queries that are substantially revised with the help of a critique group, i.e. queries by committee?
3) How much help is appropriate?
4) Is it a good strategy?
1) I think they’re just not right. I think when you write a query you put some of yourself into it (you’re selling YOUR work). When you have someone else writing it, then where is your passion for the work you wrote? Did said person (contracting another to write the letter) actually write the book? I disagree with the whole thing.
Other questions) That’s a different thing then what I just said previously. When the query is already written (with your hand), then of course you want a second, third, or fourth opinion to check for grammatical errors and layout. You’ve written it, and now you want to hear from others before you hold you head between your legs, and send your work out into the world. All of that I think is a good thing.
Phoenix says
Insurance agents aren’t selling writing, they’re selling insurance. Writers are selling their writing. And they shouldn’t be expected to be able to write???
Novelists are selling a specific kind of writing — storytelling skills and voice, not marketing/sales skills. Would you expect everyone selling liability insurance to be equally adept at selling medical insurance or optional product warranties? For that matter, do you expect every writer of taut police procedurals or thrillers to be equally adept at writing lyrical literary fiction and YA?
Besides, if every professed writer could really write well, what need would there be for editors? ;o)
L Violet says
I agree that the resumé and business letter analogies are not apt. If your resumé is for a job that includes the ability to organize information, word-process it, and write well, you are ethically obligated to write your own resumé. Same goes for business letters. And college application essays.
But–literary agents have erected a test (read: obstacle) that intersects with **but is not the same as** the ability to write novels. I feel that the system is artificial and flawed, and forces fiction writers to deal with the query system as best they can.
Agents made the rules; the rules don’t make sense. Agents need a winnowing mechanism, but the query system is a failed approach.
Is it ethical to submit a query you did not write? My heart says No but my head says You bet.
Vancouver Dame says
Thumbs down on having your query done by another person or ‘committee’. I agree with Dr. Dad, and many others in this discussion.
Writing a query letter is another aspect of being a writer, IMO. The manuscript, the query, and the synopsis are all part of the process. If the agent determines that he wants to redo the submitted material, that’s his option, but he should be able to have faith in what he is receiving as being that person’s work.
Look at all the authors who claim to be telling a true story lately, when oops! they confess later to different facts. In nearly every profession there is always someone who will do it for you, if you pay them. Where has the pride of professional quality gone? I also agree with Nathan’s reply about the insurance salesperson! A writer should write. All of it.
Nathan Bransford says
Phoenix, L Violet-
Sorry, I feel like that’s a cop out. Writers have to be able to summarize their work eloquently, whether it’s the query stage, the publicity stage, or whether it’s drafting a proposal for a future project or any of the other million times when it’s necessary to describe their work in a compelling fashion. I see it done every single day! It may not come naturally at first, but throwing up one’s hands and saying “I can’t do that” won’t get a writer very far. It’s what separates hobbyists from professionals.
Anonymous says
“I agree that the resumé and business letter analogies are not apt. If your resumé is for a job that includes the ability to organize information, word-process it, and write well, you are ethically obligated to write your own resumé. Same goes for business letters. And college application essays.”
Ethically obligated to write your own resume? Come again? You’re going to have to explain this one to me. Perhaps if you’re applying for a job that requires you to draft resumes for others, you should have created your own, but otherwise, I don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.
Same for business letters. Few people write their own business letters. I’m a lawyer and I cannot tell you the last time I sat at a computer and wrote a letter myself. Probably not since I was a law clerk working my way through law school. However, I suspect my clients prefer that I have a secretary writing my letters, for two reasons: 1) I have more pressing matters to attend to regarding their case, and 2) I bill them for my time, but not the secretary’s time.
Now, I agree with you about college essays. But I’m completely baffled otherwise.