An anonymous commenter in yesterday’s post asked me how I felt about people submitting queries they did not write. This apparently is the result of a discussion in the comments section of another blog (I don’t know which one*).
This isn’t actually a purely straightforward question for me and I’ll have more on my own thoughts tomorrow, but I thought I would broaden the question a bit more:
1) How do you feel about these ghost queries?
2) What about queries that are substantially revised with the help of a critique group, i.e. queries by committee?
3) How much help is appropriate?
4) Is it a good strategy?
Looking forward to this discussion.
*UPDATE: The discussion originated at PubRants and Courtney Milan’s blog.
Hmmm, I can't imagine how it would make a difference to the agent, since I presume it wouldn't be mentioned in the query how it came into existance.
My concern is for the author. I don't think it's dishonest or any similar thing. I think it's a lack of confidence in his or her own ability. I would encourage such an author to spend more time with their own writing and develop their love and courage in it. If the author can take a novel from the Heap & Pile Stage all the way to Submission Ready, he or she has the talent to write an excellent query letter. He or she only needs to polish that talent.
I think it’s ridiculous. If you put so much time and effort into a body of work, why should anyone but you sell it? It’s like going to all of the lectures, taking all of the notes, and doing all the assignments at university, then having someone else write the final exam for you. Bad form in my opinion.
Well, most companies hire advertising firms to market their goods, but their goods still have to hold up in the end.
If a well-written query, that adequately “sells” the project to an agent or editor so an author can get his/her manuscript read, who cares WHO wrote the query? The query isn’t what sells, right? It’s the book itself, isn’t it?
Amy-
Isn’t it false advertising?
If a well-written query, that adequately “sells” the project to an agent or editor so an author can get his/her manuscript read, who cares WHO wrote the query? The query isn’t what sells, right? It’s the book itself, isn’t it?
Again, if you take the time to write the book – to understand your characters intimately and with great detail – why should anyone but you write the letter which sells the story? Why would you hire someone else to write a query? Why don’t people hire someone else to go to job interviews for them instead of going themselves? Selling your work is selling an extension of you. As the writer, you put the sweat and tears into it and it’s your work to promote. Why would someone else write it for you? You put your personality into a query and open up the reader of the letter to you and your style of writing. It’s giving the reader/agent/editor a taste of YOU and YOUR work. When someone else writes your query that smells like false advertising to me.
The “company hires adverstising firm” analogy doesn’t work. If your company creates widgets and your marketing rep shows prospective buyers another company’s widgets, passing them off as yours, then the analogy works.
Your query should be an example of YOUR writing. It’s your widget; sell it.
– Mr. Spacely
Spacely Space Sprockets
A certain subculture of the writing world believes that the end justifies the means. Like villains in a bad story, they really will stop at nothing to further their careers, even if it means “using,” “hiring” or “borrowing” the work of others. I’ve seen what they’ve done FOR themselves and TO others.
In my opinion having someone else write the very first thing you use to sell your story feels pretty suspect to me. If I were an agent (not that I have any idea how they think – aside from reading this lovely blog), I’d be smelling a bag of you-know-what.
Wow! Great comments. I’ll add my two cents.
(Steps on soap box.)
Ghost queries? No.
Queries by committee? Depends on the committee, and why I’m using it.
My critique group has helped each other write queries. However, the gals in Slushbusters are great writers, offer good comments, and I have enough sense to apply the criticism that works. They sharpen my writing, and I’d be a fool not to consider their comments.
I agree that, eventually, we should all be able to deftly and eloquently capture our story’s geist in a paragraph or two. While we’re learning how to better do that, it helps to have folks who know our story and know the craft help us with it.
The question is whether I’m using my committee because I think query letters are pointless and require little real skill *or* whether I’m using my committee to help me learn to write a better query. Big difference.
I also agree with Sex Scenes that query problems reveal story problems. Writing a good query made me see where my novel needed major revisions.
I’ll stop now.
“Sorry, I feel like that’s a cop out. Writers have to be able to summarize their work eloquently, whether it’s the query stage, the publicity stage, or whether it’s drafting a proposal for a future project or any of the other million times when it’s necessary to describe their work in a compelling fashion. I see it done every single day! It may not come naturally at first, but throwing up one’s hands and saying “I can’t do that” won’t get a writer very far. It’s what separates hobbyists from professionals.”
So Nathan, are you saying they shouldn’t let others read it and offer suggestions to rearrange the query? Or to ask questions? So that they can go back and write a better query? That’s what I’ve done. I’ve written it, but had others point things out.
Tell me that some things don’t work, or that they don’t understand something that makes sense to me, because I’m too close.
Sarah-
Nope — don’t have a problem with authors incorporating feedback at all. More on that tomorrow.
False advertising? False advertising would be someone writing a query about something the book isn’t about. Not using someone else to write the correct synopsis and give a sales pitch as long as its accurate.
Also, for the person saying they have never had a bad query with good manuscript…could it be because you never made it past the query?
anon-
You could also make the case that misrepresenting the author’s abilities in the query by having someone else write it represents false advertising.
I’ve requested lots and lots and lots and lots of manuscripts over the years. Probably over a thousand by now. I have requested queries that were subpar where I liked the idea, queries that were superb where I wasn’t sure about the idea, and everything in between. There is a striking, striking correlation between the quality of a query and the quality of the manuscript. Striking.
Somewhere out there I’m sure you can find a good novel going unnoticed because of a crappy query. It’s a big world. But I’ve never requested a partial for a query I thought was subpar and then been blown away by the manuscript. Not once! And I’m reading solicited material several hours a day every single day.
I’m always open to tweaking the system. If I didn’t think queries worked I’d use a different system. They work.
Whoa. Having somebody else write your query is a little like having Mom write the essay for your university application. If you’re not mature enough to do it yourself, you’re not ready to enter into a responsible business relationship. Does that make sense?
Wordver: antedort. The “antedort” for bad query writing is… :O
“It’s your widget; sell it!”
I hadn’t thought about it like that. When you put it that way, comparing it to showcasing someone else’s product to sell your own, unrelated product, it does seem like false advertising.
And I loved the Jetsons as a kid!
Laurel
Why don’t I hire someone to take a job interview for me? Why don’t I hire someone to write my exams, and do my homework? It’s about honestly. In school they call it academic integrity honesty, and in writing, it should be called author integrity and responsibility. This is just wrong in my opinion. And I’ve probably talked too much in this thread but – honestly – I can’t help myself. Writing a query is – to my understanding – selling not just your work, but also yourself. If you have someone else writing it for you, it’s sleazy. That’s the word that’s been sitting on the tip of my tongue all evening. It’s sure as heck sleazy when you get someone to write a letter about you and your work.
“There is a striking, striking correlation between the quality of a query and the quality of the manuscript. Striking.”
But this is not necessarily because there is a striking correlation between the ability to write a good manuscript and the ability to write a good query letter. It is more likely because there is a striking correlation between the ability to recognize a good query letter and the ability to edit your own work.
You’re selecting for the skill where people recognize good writing.
If you can’t recognize that your query letter sucks, you probably can’t recognize that your manuscript sucks, either. But the skills for fixing a manuscript and fixing a query letter are not the same–which is why you get great query letters with crappy manuscripts.
I guess some may classify me guilty because I have posted my queries to my critique groups, in hopes of making the synopsis more appealing. These people challenge my every word. They question me and make me soul-search my writing to decide if it is worthy of being read or just wasting time. But the words are still mine. They do not rewrite it for me and I choose to decide if their comments and suggestions will better my query or not. I think that as long as a person stays true to their words, a critique group can only make them stronger.
Courtney-
I think that’s a good point, and it speaks to how important it is to know when and how to incorporate feedback. And of course, your case speaks to another aspect of the process — if you don’t want to have to write a query, there’s always referrals and networking!
Must get help with query letter. Sometimes, the author is the last to know why anyone would buy the book, or what the book is about to most readers. It’s always a good idea to get an objective point of vew!
Anon 9:10. I think it’s great when people work with a critique groups for feedback and editing of their work. You should keep doing it, I do it, it helps with mistakes. Get second eyes, smooth out awkward wording. It’s wonderful.
I spend a great deal of time refining my writing, making it original, polishing… Everything I submit that has my name on it is my original work and I’m proud of this fact.
I strongly believe if someone is submitting something that is not their original work, whether it’s a query letter, a college entrance essay, a blog post, then it should be attributed to the original author. It’s not fair to the reader of the material, the other submitters, or the original author otherwise.
Marketing material is different as its sent on behalf of the company.
I’m sorry if this hurts any feelings, but it seems pretty straightforward to me.
Here is what I think…
If I could market my own book, I wouldn’t need you. Writing a fiction novel and writing pitches are two different skill sets…this is why almost all writers have to work so hard to get good at writing query letters. I think it sucks that many agents judge our work not by the work itself, but by something that is completely unrelated to our skill as writers. Thus far I have accumulated 10 agent rejections, and NOT ONE of these has seen a single word of the novel. Something wrong with that, I think.
Hello, I have been reading your blog for a while now and find it very interesting. I have recently finished my first novel and have been looking for a literary agent. I went to the section on query letters and found the form you suggest. You’ll be hearing from me.
To comment to the subject at hand; I never thought about asking someone else to write my query for me, it just doesn’t seem proper or ethical to me.
I think that when any industry that requires selling the ‘sizzle’ as well as the ‘steak’ (or perhaps even the ‘sizzle’ instead of the ‘steak’) in hot competition to other ‘sizzles’ then you not only expect this type of thing but encourage it.
After all, no one complains that the advertisers do everything by committee in order to hone down that slick ad that will catch your eye ….
Why expect writers to be different?
Personally, I wouldn’t ask anyone else to write my query and I wouldn’t write a query for someone else, but I don’t think there’s anything in the world wrong with sking for feedback and critique. Queries are generally pretty easy for me (I work on them as I go along) but I always ask a few trusted friends to look at mine and offer any suggestions. Sometimes just changing a phrase around a but is a huge help. It’s no different from having a full ms critted.
But I wanted to post a little warning, if I may. There is a certain self-published writer who was successful enough to sell that book on to a major house. This person has set himself up as some sort of guru and is charging aspiring writers $500 or more (yes, you read that right) to write a query for them and submit it for them to "a select list of agents."
At least one of his "clients" signed a contract with well-known scammers Writer's Literary Agency.
While it's up in the air whether he actually put her in touch with WLA, the fact that for $500 he didn't even explain the basics of researching agents to her is pretty bad. As, I suspect, are his queries; I've been told he includes things like "What famous successful writers you are comparable to" and "what tragic events have happened in your life". Neither of those things really belong in a query.
I just wanted to get the word out. If someone fitting this description (self-pub to major house) offers to write your query for you for $500 or more, please do not do it, and do not trust him, no matter how nice his smile is or how good & reputable his own representation is. He will not help your career.
Sorry if this is inappropriate, Nathan. But the topic made me think of it, which happened fairly recently, and I thought perhaps it would be good to mention.
Hmm…but…what about the agents who don’t have their authors write the pitch for their novels? Agents write the pitches and they sell the book to editors. Is that wrong too?
I can’t have someone write a query for me to “sell” to an agent. But, an agent can/is expected even to write the pitch for me to sell it to an editor?
I understand the importance of the query letter – I do. But I think it’s a very sad fact that the query letter has become almost more important than the writing. And because the literary community has put so much importance on “the query”, it’s no wonder that writers are resorting to “whatever it takes” to get them in the door. Unfortunate, but apparently necessary. Maybe agents should brainstorm another way to decide which manuscripts are worthy??
I think ultimately it comes down to ownership. Regardless of who offers feedback – committee, ghost or whathave you – if it is not representative of the work, then I as the author will know that and have the mantel of integrity to wear myself. Whatever goes out under my name has to be mine.
I know I have a certain voice for good or ill that is solely my own. If someone wrote a query for me that was brilliant yet not really representative, I’d feel a total disconnect with the piece. That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t help me hone the query to have outside help.
For me personally, I am just now starting to embrace the writers community as a thing of support, I have always done EVERYTHING alone. Part of the problem for me is that query rejection is cold. It may be simply that my work does not fit an agent’s list, taste, market, etc. or it may be a freakishly lousy query about a freakishly lousy book.
I subconsciously always assume the latter – not that I think my work is lousy at all – I believe it is brilliant but my ego is not such that I don’t think it (novel AND query combined) can’t be improved or that my individual style/taste/interests are not perhaps uniquely mine – and hence not publish-worthy. It’s just that right now I have no way of knowing.
As a means of improvement a feedback loop is essential – somehow. That is what I have felt all these years I was missing.
I almost would like to post my entire novel somewhere, have folks look at it; look at my query and then tell me if they are of a piece. Just so I can get a better sense of how to synthesize the two as one. My gut tells me that what is wrong (if there is something wrong) with my query is a microcosm of what may be wrong with my book. Or not.
That’s why we value sites and discussions such as this. It gives us a lot to mull over. Looking forward to your comments today, Nathan. Always insightful and helpful. Thanks for doing this!
My editor said she was “terrible” at writing back jacket copy and uh, yes, she was. So I rewrote it for her.
Does that make her less of an editor? No.
I honestly think that AGENT’S need a good query letter because that’s the query letter THEY are going to send out to editors and frankly THEY have no clue how to do it either. I’m not saying that in a dismissive way, either. Selling something is hard; if you have a great book and the sales pitch (query) is already done, the agent doesn’t have to think about how he/she will sell it.
I bet there are tons of books that agents love but “don’t know if they can sell” simply because the writer didn’t have a great query and they, themselves don’t have a clue how to break down the book, either. What agent in today’s world has a week to spend on ONE client’s query pitch to an editor?
Writers have to be able to summarize their work eloquently, whether it’s the query stage, the publicity stage, or whether it’s drafting a proposal for a future project or any of the other million times when it’s necessary to describe their work in a compelling fashion.
Publicists and agents and ghost writers are around for those authors who do get published and have to summarize subsequent books. I’m not sure why an author HAS to develop those skills.
If the query reflects the tone of the book and the flavor of the story, I don’t think that’s false advertising. Certainly not any more so than when an agent pitches an editor. I’ve been involved with marketing/advertising copywriters, technical writers and creative writers for 20+ years now. You can be brilliant in one field of writing and totally suck in another. I’ve seen it time and again.
I’m not saying the system is broke. No matter who a query is written by, it still filters out the material an agent has no interest in repping, which is still likely 80% of the stuff that crosses the desk. And not everyone is going to employ a ghost writer.
The again, I’m probably biased. I actually enjoy (re)writing queries for others. Hmm, did someone say people would actually pay to outsource their query writing? Maybe some research is in order… ;o)
Can’t wait to see your thoughts, Nathan!
Sometimes, I read agent blogs and wonder how many jobs they’ve had. Often, agents seem to employ a very tunnel visioned outlook of their job – something I see in other industries on people who were ‘home grown’ at their company or otherwise have not had a great many experiences in different working environments. I’m not talking about job hopping – I’m talking about people who have not made the smart, deliberate moves from one environment to another to hone their industry knowledge and skills.
We wouldn’t expect, necessarily, Stephen King or John Grisham to produce a stellar romantic novel. I doubt we’d expect a great legal thriller from JK Rowling. Yet there seems to be a refusal to consider that a sales pitch, aka query letter, might just require a different skill set than a long format story teller possesses, mainly because of all the rules agents have attached to writing a query.
It should be one page! It shouldn’t start with a rhetorical question! It should only mention credentials if X,Y,Z is in place and the moon has aligned with Jupiter!
I’ll stop before this becomes a long format post. 🙂
I think there is a point where a new set of eyes is essential to writing a query. I have a friend whom I helped out with fine tuning her query and I don’t feel bad about it. I told her where I got stuck reading it, where she needed more straightforwardness etc. Then she used her own words to spruce it up. I know in her case, she was so stressed about the whole thing, a new set of eyes really helped her.
Now something that is completely written by an outside party…that’s iffy.
I’m excited to hear what you say Nathan!
A writer should be capable of writing her own query. I don’t care what anyone says, writing a good query is not more difficult than writing a good novel.
Anon (January 7, 2009 11:14 PM)
I feel your pain. I have been rejected 15 times and not one agent has actually read any of my work. My query has been critiqued, spellchecked, grammar checked, etc etc, so I do get why writers feel desperate. After spending years writing and editing my book, I can’t even get one agent to read even a partial. That sucks.
I don’t like the idea of someone else writing it, as it seems to me that’s on the questionable side. The writer needs to use his/her own voice to construct the letter because who but the writer knows the details of their story? Even a “ghost” writer who has helped the writer will not be able to convey the story the way the writer themselves would.
But that being said, I don’t see the problem with having another set of eyes go over it and point out things that could be improved upon or clarified. It’s important though that the author fixes these areas without crossing the line of having it rewritten by their critique group.
It’s a fine line really. To those saying it is wrong to have input from a critque group on areas needing improvement in the letter, then how are you supposed to ever edit anything, including your manuscript?
A writer needs to learn to accept input on improvement from others, whether that’s a query or a manuscript. Ignoring such is a bit on the egotistical side as well as a big mistake–in my honest opinion.
Feedback is no more than telling the writer this did (or didn’t) grab,excite,move (insert verb)me. Writing something used by the prospective author as an original query is dishonest.
Sorry, but writing a query letter is a whole hell of a lot different than writing a book. Anyone who has written one knows this. Just because a person doesn’t like to write queries, or can’t, doesn’t mean they can’t write a book.
And everyone I know gets help with their queries. Thats what critique groups are for, thats what contests are for.
Writing a query is a very different skill from writing a novel, and getting enough distance from your own work to do it well is also tough. Some authors simply can’t do justice to their own work in a query. I think it’s perfectly legit to get help writing a query, though I think the final words should be the author’s own.
“If someone can’t even write a query on their own, then I question his/her ability as a writer.”
Pretty strong condemnation.
As with many things in writing, having an extra set of eyes to look at things you might be missing is a good idea.
I don’t have a problem with it. Writing queries requires a whole different skill set. Some writers never seem to get the hang of it, while others have a knack for it. So I would say: try your hardest to do it yourself, but if you just can’t get it together, then get help, so your work will get read. The query, and who wrote it, ultimately doesn’t matter — it’s the pages that count.
If you can catch an agent with a query written by someone else, then to my mind that agent is not worth his/her salt.
Sorry I’m late, just discovered the blog.